Pronoun badges for train staff and mis-gendering passengers

[CervixSampler]

Trans woman 'repeatedly misgendered' by Northern Rail worker at Piccadilly https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trans-woman-hits-out-after-20829187

This article doesn't say if they have a GRC but they have legally changed their name. Lots of information in this with talk of white privilege, mental health being affected by mis-gendering but in light of the Maya ruling last week I'm wondering if staff can be forced to use pronouns that don't match what they see? To use Sir and he then the staff must have seen a male despite the facial surgery, acrylic nails, bra under their top land ponytail. I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it (awaiting ASD assessment) It's like a trans Stroop test. Just because I see a pony tail, long nails, and feminine facial features it doesn't mean that I will see a woman if other factors say male. Height, build, mannerisms, speech, voice, gait etc would all be interpreted as male and counter any feminine dressing and make up on the surface.

The article claims the station staff repeatedly misgendered Eden, even after being corrected. It sounds to me that they were careless at best, antagonistic at worst. If they had an ethical problem with using Eden's preferred gender, they could simply have called her 'Eden'.

If the member of staff had been politely asked to use Miss etc, then it was a deliberate act. It was impolite to persist, especially as the customer's name was known to the staff member and could have been used. This was a needless provocation if the events happened as described.

From the way the story's written that's a pretty grotty and rude way to treat someone, though and I'm not surprised Eden was upset.

I am clearly failing as a woman today, having neither acrylic nails nor a ponytail. I am wearing a bra as I am more comfortable wearing one, but other than that I am beginning to wonder if I am a man? All the signs are there; short hair, trousers, comfortable shoes.....

Not sure how they were meant to know that Eden was wearing a bra

I would also like to hear the railway workers side of events, it sounds as if perhaps they didn't even look at Eden but were sorting out tickets and training another member of staff, and perhaps were paying more attention to Edens voice than their appearance.

If the story is as Eden stars they were being dicks though.

I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it I'm not sure Eden looks so overwhelmingly masculine though, and even if you did make a mistake and say he, surely once she said "it's she not he" you'd correct yourself and apologise?

Assuming her version is correct, he early wanted to make a point that HE saw her as a man and his opinion mattered most

@TheFleegleHasLanded

I am clearly failing as a woman today, having neither acrylic nails nor a ponytail. I am wearing a bra as I am more comfortable wearing one, but other than that I am beginning to wonder if I am a man? All the signs are there; short hair, trousers, comfortable shoes.....

This has no relevance to the article. Eden is just pointing out the unlikelihood of the misgendering being a genuine mistake. I can't see anything in the article saying she thinks the specified fashion items are the only signs that someone is female.

This has no relevance to the article. Eden is just pointing out the unlikelihood of the misgendering being a genuine mistake. I can't see anything in the article saying she thinks the specified fashion items are the only signs that someone is female.

To be fair, if Eden identified as a man, but enjoyed presenting as feminine, they might be pissed off at being called, Madam.

Surely Eden should have said my pronouns are she/her and my ticket is wrong. Otherwise they were at risk of "misgendering" the other way...

Surely Eden should have said my pronouns are she/her and my ticket is wrong. Otherwise they were at risk of "misgendering" the other way...

That's what she did say - repeatedly. They carried on calling her 'Sir'.

Yes it does have relevance as Eden made the assertion that they are clearly signs of womanhood. Carefully lit and posed 2D pictures may well bear no resemblance to real life. As always, I would prefer to hear both sides.

Is this just Gamestop "ma'am" all over again? Basically someone using "sir" or "madam" as a verbal filler, which, especially when nervous due to confrontation, is unlikely to be consciously considered. So obviously it's going to reflect perceived sex.

To be fair, if Eden identified as a man, but enjoyed presenting as feminine, they might be pissed off at being called, Madam. They might, at which point Eden would say no I'm a him and the staff would be expected to use the pronouns that accompanies that surely. It isn't the initial mistake and the sarcy comment about "these days"

@TheFleegleHasLanded

Yes it does have relevance as Eden made the assertion that they are clearly signs of womanhood. Carefully lit and posed 2D pictures may well bear no resemblance to real life. As always, I would prefer to hear both sides.

Well, those things, rightly or wrongly, are traditionally associated with women's fashion. You might not wear them - I wouldn't wear false nails either - but they're traditionally a women's fashion item. Pointing that out isn't the same as saying all women have false nails, or that false nails are the only way of telling someone is female.

Whether the photograph is accurate or not, Eden shouldn't have had to correct them more than once.

Very rude of the member of staff. She told them to use she, they should have done so.

From the report I read, it sounds like the staff member continued to say he despite being corrected. Obviously we only have one side here but generally if someone says it's mr/he, ms/she or dr, professor, wing commander, whatever you use it and say nothing in front of the the customer even if you have a giggle with colleagues after (yes I have experienced a drag queen booking the venue I managed, not in full drag but I said he and was corrected to she

It’s probably easier for them if they just start saying ‘customer’ instead. Eden has said it was two men serving them though, I wonder how they knew they were men.

There are usually three sides to each story. His side, "her" side, and the truth.

Sounds pretty deliberate and positively rude by the end. I don’t believe this was accidental, or due to neurodivergence on the part of the station staff member. There is no reason really to repeatedly insert the word ‘sir’ in a conversation that doesn’t require it. I think Eden is right to be pissed off.

Really, really rude to carry on using sir and he when Eden drew attention to it.

But acrylic nails and lippy do not a woman make so that comment by Eden was illogical.

Still rude, ignorant and uncalled for by the train employee though.

I wonder how they knew they were men

Presumably, they didn't correct Eden if/when she referred to them by male pronouns.

Lots of information in this with talk of white privilege, mental health being affected by mis-gendering but in light of the Maya ruling last week I'm wondering if staff can be forced to use pronouns that don't match what they see?

I believe the judgement specifically said that the ruling did not mean that people were therefore free to misgender people.

The judgement did indeed make a point of saying that it wasn't a licence to misgender people.

Here's Gamestop Ma'am, for those who don't recall the incident.

Funny that is what many here have been saying for a long time.

“It’s interesting because their [Northern Rail] latest posts on Instagram are all to do with Pride Month,” she says.

“This just happens all too much - all these companies support Pride and express their love for LGBT+ people but then they don’t know how to communicate with trans people.

I don’t like the use of the term “correcting” people - reeks of facism to me.

Eden’s desire to present as a woman doesn’t override reality.