Pronoun badges for train staff and mis-gendering passengers

[CervixSampler]

Trans woman 'repeatedly misgendered' by Northern Rail worker at Piccadilly https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trans-woman-hits-out-after-20829187

This article doesn't say if they have a GRC but they have legally changed their name. Lots of information in this with talk of white privilege, mental health being affected by mis-gendering but in light of the Maya ruling last week I'm wondering if staff can be forced to use pronouns that don't match what they see? To use Sir and he then the staff must have seen a male despite the facial surgery, acrylic nails, bra under their top land ponytail. I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it (awaiting ASD assessment) It's like a trans Stroop test. Just because I see a pony tail, long nails, and feminine facial features it doesn't mean that I will see a woman if other factors say male. Height, build, mannerisms, speech, voice, gait etc would all be interpreted as male and counter any feminine dressing and make up on the surface.

@Babdoc

Why can a transgender customer insist that a staff member has to lie and deny reality, in order to “validate” their belief, but the staff member apparently can’t insist that their own preference for truth and reality be respected? Why does “be nice” always just go one way? Humans cannot change sex. Ticket staff should not be forced to pretend that they can.

But (as far as we know) Eden was not asking to be addressed as a woman (something you may consider to be a lie or denying reality, I'd struggle with it too).

Eden was merely asking not to be addressed as a man (so no need to lie, you just have to not tell the whole truth).

How though? How do you speak to a complete stranger in a professional manner without using either Sir or Ma'am, or Miss/Mister etc? How do you get their attention and get to the issue when they won't stop talking?

I’ve very rarely used sir or ma’am or miss/mr….I can’t actually think of any examples of when ive done it off the top of my head

@NecessaryScene

Can we extend this further? Can we insist that someone doesn't call us "you"?

It is certainly considered rude for nobles to be addressed by their social inferiors directly. Hence "Your Lordship should enjoy the soup" instead of "You should enjoy the soup".

Other than with royals, the practice has long since withered away.

@howard97A

As has been already pointed out on the thread, if the station staff had an ideological reason for not using Eden's preferred pronouns, they could easily have avoided this by addressing her as 'Eden' and referring to her as 'this customer' or similar.

There was no need to go on and on using a form of address that was clearly unwelcome/offensive/upsetting.

I hope I’m wrong, but I suspect that when Northern Rail have completed their investigation they’ll be telling their staff to use whatever ‘inclusive’ language the customer wants, that they don’t have the option to dissociate themselves from the customer’s fantasy.

Staff might well find that unwelcome/offensive/upsetting.

Most companies have an inclusion and diversity policy - I would be surprised if Northern Rail didn't already have one. Inclusion and diversity policies usually include guidance on how to have positive interactions with a range of people, including trans people.

I see nothing wrong with a policy that promotes positive and customer-friendly interactions. If a transperson is being deliberately misgendered, that's clearly not going to be a very good experience for them - why would anyone want to encourage that?

JediGnot
It wouldn't surprise me that some people might behave like that.

Developing resilience is always a good idea.

That your sense of self depends on controlling other people's perceptions of you, is a clear indication of lack of resilience.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

How though? How do you speak to a complete stranger in a professional manner without using either Sir or Ma'am, or Miss/Mister etc? How do you get their attention and get to the issue when they won't stop talking?

I’ve very rarely used sir or ma’am or miss/mr….I can’t actually think of any examples of when ive done it off the top of my head

I don't recall ever being addressed as "madam" or "ma'am" by anyone selling me train tickets. The customer goes to the ticket desk- there's no need get anyone's attention.

@Arbadacarba
I see nothing wrong with a policy that promotes positive and customer-friendly interactions. If a transperson is being deliberately misgendered, that's clearly not going to be a very good experience for them - why would anyone want to encourage that?

If a policy requires an employee to use language that validates an ideology that he or she regards as dishonest and dangerous that's clearly not going to be a very good experience for them. I would want to discourage that.

[quote howard97A]@Arbadacarba
I see nothing wrong with a policy that promotes positive and customer-friendly interactions. If a transperson is being deliberately misgendered, that's clearly not going to be a very good experience for them - why would anyone want to encourage that?

If a policy requires an employee to use language that validates an ideology that he or she regards as dishonest and dangerous that's clearly not going to be a very good experience for them. I would want to discourage that.[/quote]
If there's an impasse between satisfying the beliefs of opposing ideologies, surely a compromise should be sought, rather than requiring one side to back down.

A compromise such as addressing Eden as 'Eden' for example, and referring to her in non-gendered ways, e.g. 'this customer' rather than 'this man'.

My MIL gets pronouns the wrong way around all the time, especially for cartoon characters and DDs little friends who’ve got uncommon names, doesn’t matter how many times we correct her she just can’t get it into her head that Peppa Pig is a she and Elijah is a he.

If a policy requires an employee to use language that validates an ideology that he or she regards as dishonest and dangerous that's clearly not going to be a very good experience for them. I would want to discourage that

A few posts ago the employee was a simple 50 year old who couldn't possibly be expected to know about , far less understanding gender ideology. Now apparently he's so clued up about it that he knew he was being asked to validate an ideology that he regards as dishonest and dangerous.

Neither option gives any plausible reason why he couldn't stop saying "sir" when asked.

@TheRebelle

My MIL gets pronouns the wrong way around all the time, especially for cartoon characters and DDs little friends who’ve got uncommon names, doesn’t matter how many times we correct her she just can’t get it into her head that Peppa Pig is a she and Elijah is a he.

And how this is relevant?

It’s an example that not everybody is doing it on purpose to be hurtful, some people just can’t get their heads around it.

@TheRebelle

It’s an example that not everybody is doing it on purpose to be hurtful, some people just can’t get their heads around it.

I agree, I have mixed up pronouns for small children and often accidentally call my cat a he when she is a she. If sex is not obvious I can forget which to use, and I've had the cat for three years . Similarly, some people struggle with saying the opposite of what they see.

@KimikosNightmare

If a policy requires an employee to use language that validates an ideology that he or she regards as dishonest and dangerous that's clearly not going to be a very good experience for them. I would want to discourage that

A few posts ago the employee was a simple 50 year old who couldn't possibly be expected to know about , far less understanding gender ideology. Now apparently he's so clued up about it that he knew he was being asked to validate an ideology that he regards as dishonest and dangerous.

Neither option gives any plausible reason why he couldn't stop saying "sir" when asked.

From Sun-reading simpleton to GC ideologist in the space of a page ... only on Mumsnet.

@SleepingStandingUp

I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it I'm not sure Eden looks so overwhelmingly masculine though, and even if you did make a mistake and say he, surely once she said "it's she not he" you'd correct yourself and apologise?

Assuming her version is correct, he early wanted to make a point that HE saw her as a man and his opinion mattered most

I have to say, after seeing Stephanie Hayden online picture with filters etc, and then the photos of Stephanie Hayden in the newspaper on some litigation case, I think the online version is many a time more an edited picture than a photo.

@kowari exactly, I can totally see if this were to happen to my MIL she wouldn’t understand why the person she’s perceived as male kept saying “she” she wouldn’t relate it back to her use of “Sir” and with the trainee there as well she’d probably get embarrassed and frustrated and be concentrating on whatever the query was that she’d think he/she whatever, does it really matter?

I know, as a woman, if I were ever referred to as he/sir I probably wouldn’t say anything and embarrass the person and just think it’s one interaction of thousands, it doesn’t really matter.

@DdraigGoch It is certainly considered rude for nobles to be addressed by their social inferiors directly. Hence "Your Lordship should enjoy the soup" instead of "You should enjoy the soup".

Other than with royals, the practice has long since withered away.

Ahem. Maybe uninformed people aren't aware that 'king gender' and 'Queen Gender' exist as deeply felt, and sincere identities. They are on a current list and have their own flags; in order to signal to other common people to act appropriately in their presence.

So, no. Not withered away. Resurrected and a choice, not merely an accident of birth like her majesty .

I get misgendered often. I am definitely a female, I even have a ponytail! 😂🙄. I can’t say I feel the need to go to the newspapers about it when it happens. I don’t even bother correcting the person unless my sex is relevant to the discussion we’re having. If I had a pound for everytime someone has called me ‘son’ I’d be very rich.

My son gets called she a lot as he has long hair. He does correct people every single time and they rarely correct it to he.

I really struggle to care about this kind of thing.

If there's an impasse between satisfying the beliefs of opposing ideologies, surely a compromise should be sought, rather than requiring one side to back down.
Not only is that the thin edge of a very unpleasant wedge, but compromises that women might be willing to make will never be enough for others to accept.

Hair in a ponytail, acrylic nails, and a bra do not a woman make. Eden's natal sex will remain a fact throughout her life no matter her attempts to amend it, and it is Eden's responsibility to understand that and acknowledge that others may or will not use words that do not apply to her.

Eden's rights are her own but they end where the rights of others begin.

@GCAutist

I get misgendered often. I am definitely a female, I even have a ponytail! 😂🙄. I can’t say I feel the need to go to the newspapers about it when it happens. I don’t even bother correcting the person unless my sex is relevant to the discussion we’re having. If I had a pound for everytime someone has called me ‘son’ I’d be very rich.

My son gets called she a lot as he has long hair. He does correct people every single time and they rarely correct it to he.

I really struggle to care about this kind of thing.

It doesn't bother you, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for others to be bothered by it.

It wouldn't particularly bother me to be referred to as fat (I'm overweight). That doesn't mean others wouldn't be deeply upset by it; possibly even find it a trigger for an underlying eating disorder.

It's no argument at all to say 'x thing doesn't bother me, so I don't care if anyone else is bothered by it.'

I find it hard to have much sympathy when Eden is male though, Eden’s relying on others picking up on sexist stereotypes to call Eden “she” and if you don’t know much about the subject I can see how you’d fail to pick up on what Eden was asking for.