Pronoun badges for train staff and mis-gendering passengers

[CervixSampler]

Trans woman 'repeatedly misgendered' by Northern Rail worker at Piccadilly https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trans-woman-hits-out-after-20829187

This article doesn't say if they have a GRC but they have legally changed their name. Lots of information in this with talk of white privilege, mental health being affected by mis-gendering but in light of the Maya ruling last week I'm wondering if staff can be forced to use pronouns that don't match what they see? To use Sir and he then the staff must have seen a male despite the facial surgery, acrylic nails, bra under their top land ponytail. I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it (awaiting ASD assessment) It's like a trans Stroop test. Just because I see a pony tail, long nails, and feminine facial features it doesn't mean that I will see a woman if other factors say male. Height, build, mannerisms, speech, voice, gait etc would all be interpreted as male and counter any feminine dressing and make up on the surface.

@Arbadacarba
Then why am I never called Sir with a typical male haircut, no make up, and short nails?

So, speak up, kowari. Simply say 'I'd prefer you not to refer to me as 'this lady'.

As women, we shouldn't be afraid of being seen as 'attention-seeking drama llamas' (to quote a pp) if we simply state a reasonable preference in a reasonable manner.

This easy-labelling of women as 'attention-seekers' is partly why women, particularly middle-aged women, are terrified of standing up for their rights - it's where the dreaded 'Karen' label lurks.

@kowari

You might not like hearing "the lady here has a problem" but it's not mis- sexing or misgendering you. It does make me feel misgendered actually. I do not present as a lady at all, it feels like a feminine term. I would have no objection to woman as that is just referring to my sex

As I said the determination of some posters on here to take offence to the clearly well- intentioned use of "lady" or "gentleman" in this sort of situation should never be underestimated.

[quote kowari]**@Arbadacarba
Then why am I never called Sir with a typical male haircut, no make up, and short nails?[/quote]
Without seeing you/hearing you, it's impossible for me to comment. As I said in my post, the things mentioned are likely, but not exclusive indicators of sex/gender.

@AdHominemNonSequitur

I honestly think that this is is a rare case of actual/overt transphobia. The misgendering (beyond the first time and being corrected) was clearly done in a way calculated to hurt.

I interpret the ruling in the same way Arbadacarba.

Yes, I agree. A lot of usernames I don't recognize on this thread to argue the toss. Very strange they're absent from the more meaty threads.

[quote kowari]**@Arbadacarba
Then why am I never called Sir with a typical male haircut, no make up, and short nails?[/quote]
You are being disingenuous and you know it. Abracadabra explained this very well in her post.

As for calling you 'lady" , in the situation here the usage would clearly be done to be polite. If you don't like it , then as Abracadabra pointed out, say so.

If the person continued to use lady, then it ceases to be polite. That's what happened here- they were asked not to use "sir" but carried on doing so.

There are posters on here who deliberately or otherwise are doing their best to give lie to the claim "there's no transphobia here"

In fact why is this thread even posited as a feminist issue?

Presumably because the OP believes she should be able to misgender people on the basis that she would be using sex based pronouns and therefore her GC beliefs take precedence over the right of transgender people to be referred to by their preferred pronouns.

Taking the news report at face value (and it is one side of the story), then I do think that the rail staff should have referred to Eden as she / her because that was what they had requested. It’s common courtesy, whatever you may personally think of the sex / gender of your customer.

@Arbadacarba

Eden got on a train they weren’t entitled to use

This is speculation, but it's very easy to get caught out by Northern Rail's off-peak rule.

You can't get on a train before 9:30 am or between 4pm and 6:30pm (I think it's 6:30pm). That sounds easy enough, but the 4pm rule also applies to connecting services - so if you get on the 15:30 at Leeds, say, and it's a direct train getting you to your home station at 17:00 - fine. If you get on the 15:30 at Leeds but have to change onto the 16:20 at Bradford, say, that's not allowed. Many infrequent travellers get caught out by that one.

Given the references to "specific train", I reckon that Eden had an Advance ticket (I think that Northern now sell these on the day too). People often buy tickets on mobile apps (usually Trainline's one) and don't read the conditions.

The article says that the train was running late so Eden boarded a different one. Usually staff will show some flexibility during disruption but I'm looking at a list of actual departures from Chorley to Man Vic and can't find anything that was delayed last Friday.

*By the way, make sure that you take good care if you use the "Splitsave" function on Trainline's app. It can be very difficult to avoid the pitfalls of the different conditions of the different portions of your ticket. The way in which their app is set up doesn't make these things very clear. People assume that Trainline are the official source for ticketing but they are just like any other third party agent.

@Arbadacarba

Meaning that men tend to be taken at their word, while women perhaps are less so. I don’t think it relates to the incident, rather to the raft of people who are taking Eden’s complaint at face value. Not sure if it’s true, but that was what I took it to mean

As I said before, we only have the wording of the article to go on - in which Northern Rail have not denied what happened - they've apologised for it. Of course I get that that may simply be a public relations decision on Northern Rail's behalf, but in a discussion of events as presented in an article, it isn't unreasonable to discuss the events at face value. Otherwise, we might just as well say 'It's probably all made up, so let's not entertain a discussion at all.'

Suppose, for the sake of argument, the article was about a natal woman who'd been repeatedly misgendered for whatever reason - do you think the absence of (perceived) 'male privilege' would mean everyone would say 'oh, that's all right then'?

They have apologised but the article said that the matter was under investigation.

The inspector was rude and goady if the version of events we have read is true.

@kowari

I don't get how the name change is relevant? The only Eden I've known was a bloke.

I've known two, one was a girl, the other was ironically the new name for a transwoman (not the same one, I've checked, they've got different surnames).

It's simply saying that having long hair and false nails in 2021 makes you more likely to be female or female-identifying.

There are enough men who do have long hair and fake nails that I personally wouldn’t assume that the person standing in front of me with a clearly male body was a trans woman. The person in the article seems to think that nails, long hair and a bra are sufficient to override their body type when a stranger is inferring at a glance the correct pronouns to use. That is an unreasonable expectation. Clothing, accessories and hairstyle are by no means “all the signs”.

That point is largely irrelevant though, as the station staff didn’t just make a mistake. He was clearly and deliberately continuing to use sex-based pronouns rather than using preferred pronouns or avoiding pronouns altogether. Gratuitous, rude and transphobic imo.

@Babdoc

How far does this go? If I insist I identify as an Empress, and demand to be addressed as “Your imperial majesty” and be curtseyed to, are train staff obliged to humour me with that as well? And if not, why not? What’s the difference?

You can't force people to use words, but you can tell people what words you don't want them to use and any decent person would respect that.

I couldn't have brought my self to refer to Eden as "she/her/madam" so I would have just avoided gendered language completely. Mistakes do happen and we may instinctively say what we see but it is rudeness to continue doing so when asked not to. It's just like the Managing Director in The Good Life deliberately misremembering names to put other people at a disadvantage.

If it's like the ticket offices I've used, you and the ticket clerk both have to crouch down and right up against the wretched security screen to have a hope of hearing what the other is saying. Some of them are badly scratched and clouded so not fully transparent. I'm above average height for a woman with a slight build, and am frequently mis- gendered although people usually correct themselves when they actually look at my face. If a ticket clerk were studying a small print ticket and tutoring a trainee,I would expect the mis-gendering to continue,no matter how much I squawked girlishly at the security screen while stood in my skirt suit and high heels clutching the handbag. At 6' 2" poor Eden-James is doomed to be mis-gendered by people casting a casual glance .

The excess fares at Man Picc was portable stand-up desks the last time that I remember, though they may have added screens since covid.

Perhaps Eden's facial feminization should have included a thicker skin.

This is why I don't like this kind of journalism as it sets up the person for nasty comments by the public.
Saying that, either the regulars of get have all name changed at the same time, or we've an influx of new posters who seem to have all decided to post on this story. Strange.
Either way, personal comments are uncalled for. Eden absolutely wasn't harming anyone. The member of staff is being investigated so hopefully they will get to the bottom of it.

This sounds like pretty clear misgendering and on top of that, generally a bit rude. I’m not surprised northern rail apologised. I think you can defend women’s sex based rights and also trans people’s general right to be treated respectfully. In this case, by not calling her he after she called them out on it.

Two sides to every story. If the train worker only glanced but heard a male voice , its easy to see why he would say Sir.
I'm getting fed of up of the ppl claiming abuse when it was an error.

Nobody should be compelled to use incorrect pronouns. Ever.

@Torvean

Two sides to every story. If the train worker only glanced but heard a male voice , its easy to see why he would say Sir. I'm getting fed of up of the ppl claiming abuse when it was an error.

This ignores the point that the train worker carried on calling Eden 'Sir' after she asked them, more than once, to stop.

The person in the article seems to think that nails, long hair and a bra are sufficient to override their body type when a stranger is inferring at a glance the correct pronouns to use. That is an unreasonable expectation.

I agree, and it would be wrong to assume gender on this basis. However, if I met someone in a customer-service situation where there was this kind of ambiguity, I'd at least be alert to the need to find out how they'd prefer to be referred to. I'd start by asking them for their name - which, if you're dealing with a complaining customer, is a sensible place to start even if there's no ambiguity in their appearance.

As you've rightly pointed out, this isn't really relevant as Eden made her pronouns clear.

The MEN isn't exactly the height of quality journalism so this story is probably missing a lot of information and facts.
The staff do seem transphobic I agree but my question was more about the pronoun badges and if people could be expected to use the preferred pronouns on the badges if that doesn't match what you see.

Pronoun badges would be a matter of personal choice. There's nothing to stop anyone wearing one now, if they want to.

I doubt wearing a pronoun badge would have helped Eden, as she clearly stated her pronouns but was ignored.