Pronoun badges for train staff and mis-gendering passengers

[CervixSampler]

Trans woman 'repeatedly misgendered' by Northern Rail worker at Piccadilly https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trans-woman-hits-out-after-20829187

This article doesn't say if they have a GRC but they have legally changed their name. Lots of information in this with talk of white privilege, mental health being affected by mis-gendering but in light of the Maya ruling last week I'm wondering if staff can be forced to use pronouns that don't match what they see? To use Sir and he then the staff must have seen a male despite the facial surgery, acrylic nails, bra under their top land ponytail. I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it (awaiting ASD assessment) It's like a trans Stroop test. Just because I see a pony tail, long nails, and feminine facial features it doesn't mean that I will see a woman if other factors say male. Height, build, mannerisms, speech, voice, gait etc would all be interpreted as male and counter any feminine dressing and make up on the surface.

@TrifleCat

I don’t like the use of the term “correcting” people - reeks of facism to me.

Eden’s desire to present as a woman doesn’t override reality.

I'd agree with you over the use of 'correction'.

But I still think it's incredibly rude once a customer has pointed out their preference.

I sometimes ask people to call me Ms rather than Mrs. I don't press the point if they continue to use Mrs but if I thought they were being snarky about it I would class that as rude.

I would be interested to know how polite Eden was

I don’t like the use of the term “correcting” people - reeks of facism to me.

It's something of an exaggeration to compare the use of this term to fascism. What would be your preferred word to describe what Eden did?

I think deliberately using the sex-based pronouns rather than their preferred ones when talking to someone is incredibly rude and unnecessary. Why not just say "you" when addressing the person and "this customer" when talking to a colleague in front of the person? No mis-gendering, no saying things you don't believe to be true. Lots of religious people don't believe in gay marriage, but deliberately referring to a female customer's "girlfriend" rather than "wife" after being told they were married wouldn't be okay IMO.

Eden tried to compel the train staff to tell a lie?

They may have been rude, but they were also right, and if you are focusing on something else it makes it even harder to do a Stroop test correctly.

If Eden looks in real life as in those pictures, then using 'sir' and 'he' was clearly deliberate, especially after Eden corrected them multiple times. Whatever one's views on the trans debate, there is really no call for being so deliberately rude to a customer after they have politely asked you to address them in a certain way.

Eden tried to compel the train staff to tell a lie?

How is it 'telling a lie' to use someone's preferred form of address? 'Sir' is simply a courtesy title.

It would seem that the employee was being rude, it shouldn't take repeated requests to get it right.

However the article only contains supplied images which makes me think reality may be somewhat different and we don't know what Eden's voice sounds like. The stroop test is an interesting experiment in the mental effort required to say something different to what we see.

Even if we gave the employee the benefit of the doubt their dismissive attitude when Eden became frustrated was not an example of good customer service. I'm playing devils advocate because when a friend transitioned it took me a while to consistently get their name and pronouns right, I had not desire to upset a friend but the change was not easy to make no matter how willing I was to support them.

Sir' is simply a courtesy title.

For males.

Even if we stretched benefit of the doubt to the edge of reason in relation to the repeated use of 'Sir' I think the staff made their intention to antagonise clear with the 'man, woman, whatever is the world coming to?' jibe.

I agree that was over the line, if it happened.

@lazylinguist

If Eden looks in real life as in those pictures, then using 'sir' and 'he' was clearly deliberate, especially after Eden corrected them multiple times. Whatever one's views on the trans debate, there is really no call for being so deliberately rude to a customer after they have politely asked you to address them in a certain way.

That photo is filtered, and I don’t believe that employee is in the habit if calling people he believes to be women sir, just for shits and giggles

Having said that i do think he was being incredibly rude to continue to call Eden sir once she corrected him

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Sir' is simply a courtesy title.

For males.

The point I'm making is that anyone can object to being called 'Sir', and it's not unreasonable for that to be respected. As I said earlier, if the staff had an ethical problem with calling Eden 'Madam' or Miss/Ms' they could simply have called her by her name, Eden.

@TheFleegleHasLanded

I am clearly failing as a woman today, having neither acrylic nails nor a ponytail. I am wearing a bra as I am more comfortable wearing one, but other than that I am beginning to wonder if I am a man? All the signs are there; short hair, trousers, comfortable shoes.....

Same here . Currently have my hair cut at the barber and have had a buzz cut before but have never been called Sir.

My lonv haired teenage DS has been repeatedly missexed but neither he nor I have corrected anyone, only said 'he' or 'my son' when I naturally would.

Eden tried to compel the train staff to tell a lie?

Not really tbh. If Eden had got them to say "You are a woman", that would be a lie. But just agreeing to address Eden as 'Miss' is not a lie.

The guy sounds like a rude arsehole tbh. He was repeatedly corrected and clearly didn't give a shit. I doubt this would be covered by Maya's ruling, and I wouldn't wish it to be.

" I kept correcting him by saying it’s ‘miss’ or ‘she’ but by the fifth time, it really started to annoy me. I shouted ‘oh my god, it’s she’.

“He just looked me up and down and tutted and looked at his colleagues as if he couldn’t understand the point I was trying to make."

"He said something along the lines of ‘man, woman, whatever! God, what’s the world coming to, eh?’."

It's something of an exaggeration to compare the use of this term to fascism. What would be your preferred word to describe what Eden did?

I would use the word insisted rather than corrected as corrected implies that people are doing something wrong.

All societies which have forced compelled speech have ended badly. Wonder why that is ?

@AfternoonToffee

Funny that is what many here have been saying for a long time.

“It’s interesting because their [Northern Rail] latest posts on Instagram are all to do with Pride Month,” she says.

“This just happens all too much - all these companies support Pride and express their love for LGBT+ people but then they don’t know how to communicate with trans people.

Yep, it's all woke lip service.

I would use the word insisted rather than corrected as corrected implies that people are doing something wrong.

I think in this case, the staff were doing something wrong. Not, perhaps, in their first use of 'Sir' (giving the benefit of the doubt) but by repeating it several times even after the person being addressed had said they didn't like it.

Why would anyone carry on doing something that was clearly causing upset - especially, as in that specific context, there was the option to use the person's name?

especially, as in that specific context, there was the option to use the person's name?

I probably missed it, but how would they know Edens name?

I probably missed it, but how would they know Edens name?

She had a pre-booked train ticket which they'd taken hold of.

Why is everyone so willing to take Eden’s word for what happened? That’s male privilege right there.

Do tickets normally have your name on? I've always just been sent the tickets you get out the machines...

That’s male privilege right there.

The station staff were male, so, no, it isn't about male privilege.

There might be another side to the story, of course, but we can only comment on the article as presented. Northern Rail haven't denied Eden's version of events.