Pronoun badges for train staff and mis-gendering passengers

[CervixSampler]

Trans woman 'repeatedly misgendered' by Northern Rail worker at Piccadilly https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trans-woman-hits-out-after-20829187

This article doesn't say if they have a GRC but they have legally changed their name. Lots of information in this with talk of white privilege, mental health being affected by mis-gendering but in light of the Maya ruling last week I'm wondering if staff can be forced to use pronouns that don't match what they see? To use Sir and he then the staff must have seen a male despite the facial surgery, acrylic nails, bra under their top land ponytail. I really struggle when things don't match as it were and my brain just can't compute it (awaiting ASD assessment) It's like a trans Stroop test. Just because I see a pony tail, long nails, and feminine facial features it doesn't mean that I will see a woman if other factors say male. Height, build, mannerisms, speech, voice, gait etc would all be interpreted as male and counter any feminine dressing and make up on the surface.

It's pretty clear from Eden's instagram (where the Manchester Evening News presumably got the images of Eden) that Eden makes a considerable effort to try and pass. Eden has a very valid point about the corporate endorsement of Pride. I grew up with 'who's she, the cat's mother?' so don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to not use gendered pronouns in my presence.

@kowari

Would a natal woman make a fuss and continuously correct a person missexing her if it wasn't relevant to the conversation? I know I wouldn't. I've not insisted that I not be called a lady even though I hate it.

I would certainly correct someone who addressed me as 'Sir'. If they kept on and on doing it after I'd said something, I'd complain if it was a customer service situation.

I wouldn't correct 'lady' although I'm not a fan of it either, but I'd correct 'Sir' or 'he'.

@lazylinguist

If Eden looks in real life as in those pictures, then using 'sir' and 'he' was clearly deliberate, especially after Eden corrected them multiple times. Whatever one's views on the trans debate, there is really no call for being so deliberately rude to a customer after they have politely asked you to address them in a certain way.

That is what I think too. There is no need to be deliberately unkind to someone who was just trying to catch a train.

The staff did not need to use any pronouns at all at the comment at the end is just rude.

I wouldn't correct 'lady' although I'm not a fan of it either, but I'd correct 'Sir' or 'he'. Ok, guess we're all different . I'd prefer 'Sir' or 'he' to being referred to as a lady!

@Arbadacarba

The article claims the station staff repeatedly misgendered Eden, even after being corrected. It sounds to me that they were careless at best, antagonistic at worst. If they had an ethical problem with using Eden's preferred gender, they could simply have called her 'Eden'.

And exactly how would they have known their name? When was the last time you told a ticket inspector your name?

This is an interesting quote from them.
just had facial surgery seven months ago, I've legally changed my name and I'm on hormones every day yet people still decide to ignore what they see in front of them
I would say the ticket inspector didn’t ignore what he saw in front of him. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Maybe we should just call everyone 'mate' . Is there a polite unisex term?

I don't get how the name change is relevant? The only Eden I've known was a bloke.

@kowari

I wouldn't correct 'lady' although I'm not a fan of it either, but I'd correct 'Sir' or 'he'. Ok, guess we're all different . I'd prefer 'Sir' or 'he' to being referred to as a lady!

Well, I used to get mistaken for a boy when I was a small child as my mum had my hair cut very short and usually dressed me in trousers/dungarees (quite common in the 1970s) and I loathed it - as soon as I was old enough to have a say in the matter I grew my hair and refused to wear trousers. So I strongly dislike the idea of being misgendered, although it would be unlikely to happen now with my somewhat short and top-heavy build.

When was the last time you told a ticket inspector your name?

Unsurprisingly, the last time I wanted to make a complaint and was asked for my name. I'd have thought 'Can I take your name please?' was a standard question to a complaining customer, as Eden was.

@lazylinguist

If Eden looks in real life as in those pictures, then using 'sir' and 'he' was clearly deliberate, especially after Eden corrected them multiple times. Whatever one's views on the trans debate, there is really no call for being so deliberately rude to a customer after they have politely asked you to address them in a certain way.

Maybe try listening to them speak. They’ve got plenty of videos up on their Instagram account. Close your eyes and it’s a northern bloke from Chorley. Open them and you’re faced with a 6” 2” person dressed as you would expect a woman to be dressed, but with a very deep male voice.

DD used to commute by train to her office. She has v short hair, and wore a suit and tie.
Train staff often mistakenly addressed her as “sir”.
DD never found it necessary to throw a hissy fit or make complaints, however. She just got on with her day, as she’s not an attention seeking drama llama.

I thought initially they went to get their ticket issue sorted, then went back to complain about the misgendering?

I've given up correcting people who misgender me since about the age of 10. It still happens now occasionally. I feel sad for people who are so reliant on external validation rather than have confidence in themselves.

@Arbadacarba

When was the last time you told a ticket inspector your name?

Unsurprisingly, the last time I wanted to make a complaint and was asked for my name. I'd have thought 'Can I take your name please?' was a standard question to a complaining customer, as Eden was.

They are actually called Eden-James. It’s literally the name on their passport. So if they did give their name, combined with the height and deep voice, one would assume they were a man dressed as a woman.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Do tickets normally have your name on? I've always just been sent the tickets you get out the machines...

I know a boy (biological male) called Eden so this name is no indicator of sex.

DD never found it necessary to throw a hissy fit or make complaints, however. She just got on with her day, as she’s not an attention seeking drama llama.

If your DD was repeatedly misgendered and genuinely didn't care, that's great for her. But that doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to be upset if they are misgendered.

If your DD is upset by it, then I don't think asking to be correctly addressed would make her an 'attention-seeking drama llama'. Rather, it would show a reasonable degree of assertiveness.

I know a boy (biological male) called Eden so this name is no indicator of sex. Yes, the only Eden I've known was male. It had a similar sound to Aiden, I would place it on the male side of unisex myself.

Especially Eden-James, I would assume the person was male from that name.

If this isn’t misgendering someone, what does misgendering someone look like?

Bearing in mind the Maya Forstater judgement that says GC beliefs are protected beliefs, and also that the judgement cannot be used as a licence to go out and misgender people. There seems to be people on MN arguing that they can, should and will use sex based pronouns whether the person they are talking to likes that or not, but also a massive long thread where people are saying that they do support transpeople. What does support mean if you insist on calling a transperson by pronouns they have asked you not to use? So if misgendering someone isn’t using sex based pronouns, what is it?

Well having had a quick search for them, in ordinary photos (not posed) they do look more masculine and they do sound male. If I wasn't paying much attention to the 'gender markers' they were putting out, and judging by the non posed 'real' photos, I think their 'gender' could be easy to miss. I think I could have easily made a similar mistake. But then, I wasn't there, so impossible to know the situation from the other 'side.'

But if biological sex is now fluid, why could they not be a man in a dress? We are apparently not supposed to make assumptions but also make assumptions.

Sounds like actual transphobia. The comment at the end kind of decides it. So, presuming it happened as was said I think a complaint is fair enough.
Saying that, I don't understand why people always insist on going to the papers about things these days, but I expect that is just me showing my age.
The hypocrisy on the pride virtue signalling is hardly surprising.

Why are people pushing the “maybe the employee didn’t realise”? It’s one thing to not realise someone is transgender, apologise, and use the preferred pronouns afterwards, another thing entirely to continuing saying sir five times.

@DelilahDingleberry

Why are people pushing the “maybe the employee didn’t realise”? It’s one thing to not realise someone is transgender, apologise, and use the preferred pronouns afterwards, another thing entirely to continuing saying sir five times.

Exactly. There have been some amazing mental gymnastics on this thread in an attempt to justify the station staff.

@MilesOfSand

But if biological sex is now fluid, why could they not be a man in a dress? We are apparently not supposed to make assumptions but also make assumptions.

I agree, I would always use sex based pronouns and titles unless corrected, that way I am not assuming gender. Otherwise should my long haired male child be continuously missexed to spare the feelings of another long haired male who wants people to pretend they are a woman? There are many long haired males, some who like to wear feminine clothing or wear makeup, who see themselves as men.

No assumptions were necessary. Eden explicitly asked not to be called 'Sir' and referred to as 'he'.