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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Barack Obama heartbroken by wave of anti-trans bills

171 replies

plantanoakhun · 13/06/2021 17:20

www.google.com/amp/s/uk.news.yahoo.com/amphtml/barack-obama-heartbroken-wave-anti-153244006.html

Thoughts?

OP posts:
flymetotherune · 16/06/2021 13:47

The Obama's, like many left wing and centrist Americans, are more open minded when it comes to gender identity and it seems more in touch with the changing times. Zaya Wade a bright, thoughtful trans girl interviewed her idol Michelle Obama and Michelle commended Zaya for being an amazing role model and embracing her truth. It was incredibly affirming and cheerful and I think we could all do with learning something from Michelle's graciousness and Zayas courage. We Europeans often point to Americans as being backwards but perhaps when it comes to gender we could learn a thing or two. Surely it's saying something about the kind of people who are anti trans when it was the TRUMP adminstation that reversed Obama-era protections for LGBTQ+.

NannyAndJohn · 16/06/2021 14:01

@flymetotherune

The Obama's, like many left wing and centrist Americans, are more open minded when it comes to gender identity and it seems more in touch with the changing times. Zaya Wade a bright, thoughtful trans girl interviewed her idol Michelle Obama and Michelle commended Zaya for being an amazing role model and embracing her truth. It was incredibly affirming and cheerful and I think we could all do with learning something from Michelle's graciousness and Zayas courage. We Europeans often point to Americans as being backwards but perhaps when it comes to gender we could learn a thing or two. Surely it's saying something about the kind of people who are anti trans when it was the TRUMP adminstation that reversed Obama-era protections for LGBTQ+.
That's because the Republicans, ghastly as some of them may be, know what a woman is.

And that is why I will be rooting for their success over the Democrats.

sanluca · 16/06/2021 14:21

We Europeans often point to Americans as being backwards but perhaps when it comes to gender we could learn a thing or two.

Trying to think what we could learn from Americans on womens rights... let's see. No right to facilities or services that exclude all male people, little to no right to abortions, no right to maternity leave, no right to support as a single mum or working mum, no right to sports with only female competitors, high rate of mortality during pregnancy and labour. Mm, I'll pass. I prefer a government that actually realises different groups of people have different needs and women are a separate group from transwomen and men.

merrymouse · 16/06/2021 14:37

We Europeans often point to Americans as being backwards but perhaps when it comes to gender we could learn a thing or two

No.

Tenuous access to abortion and contraception.

No right to healthcare.

Little employment protection.

They just don’t have an existing framework of rights to protect.

Redapplewreath · 16/06/2021 15:28

Zaya Wade a bright, thoughtful trans girl interviewed her idol Michelle Obama and Michelle commended Zaya for being an amazing role model and embracing her truth. It was incredibly affirming and cheerful and I think we could all do with learning something from Michelle's graciousness and Zayas courage.

How lovely. But interviewing and being an amazing role model and embracing ones truth do not have to involve stripping all females of sex based rights regardless of impact, and in fact insisting that the needs of males must be prioritised over female ones. Which is neither gracious nor courageous. Preventing female people who need sex based rights, spaces and resources to have these alongside, excludes many vulnerable women from those spaces and resources and hugely negatively affects their dignity, privacy and feelings - which I'm certain Michelle et al would strongly defend for Zaya.

It is not celebrating Zaya that is the issue, that's lovely. It's the trail in the wake of destroying women's sex based rights, the impact upon them and the intolerance of permitting Zaya and other TG and TW needs to be met in a way that does not necessitate harming women. Again. Not gracious. Not progressive in any way. Caring about female humans as having equal needs to all male ones is not 'anti trans'.

joolzfromyork · 17/06/2021 07:13

@rabbitwoman

.... One thing I have noticed about everyone who speaks up publicly against GC beliefs is that they never have any real answers. How many issues have we raised? Prisons, sports, puberty blockers? And everyone just either ignores them, tells us we are lying....

There are lots of answers that could be offered ... Fair Compromises that could be made.

But, if I were to put my head above the parapet ... it would likely be shot off ... cos thats what BOTH sides of this debate tend to do.

Bit pathetic really

(and someone on this thread will call me a man in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... )

merrymouse · 17/06/2021 07:45

There are lots of answers that could be offered ... Fair Compromises that could be made.

Quite happy to believe that, but you would need to first acknowledge that two separate groups are involved and that there is a conflict of interests.

merrymouse · 17/06/2021 07:46

cos thats what BOTH sides of this debate tend to do.

Really not true.

Only one side has a policy of ‘no debate’.

FOJN · 17/06/2021 09:07

Barak Obama and Tony Blair are cut from the same cloth. They are both skilled politicians who know what they need to say to win. I'm not sure BO is really heartbroken about bills which protect women's and girls rights but it's a fashionable cause for the Dems to back. There is a whole video montage on YouTube of Dem politicians speaking against same sex marriage, BO included, before he was elected. They all trotted out the same line that marriage was a sacred union between a man and a woman, the wording was identical so it certainly looked scripted. It would seem unlikely he would move so far from that position for anything other than political expediency or he never really believed it in the first place. The point being I think he says what he is told core dem voters want to hear without actually caring about some of the issues he offers opinion on.

Republican presidents always oppose abortion in their election campaigns even when there is plenty of evidence they supported it before they thought they had a shot at the WH, Regan being the most obvious example.

mollythemeerkat · 17/06/2021 09:53

Fashionable cause for the Democrats is about right, but I was naive enough to think BO had a better attitude to women and girls, having an intelligent wife and two daughters who, by all accounts, he thinks a lot of. Incongruency right there. Or is it that holding priviledged positions and having money means that the erosion of sex based rights is not quite such a pressing issue.

Blibbyblobby · 17/06/2021 10:19

I think they just accept this "poor trans people suffering in the wrong body, living a lie" narrative as something good people support.

Tag-teaming LGB has created such strong associations with "the right side of history" that they don't consider it worthy of challenge. The assumption is that the arguments in favour of LBG acceptance and rights were fair so the arguments for whatever TRAs are demanding must be as well. They aren't looking at the details.

So it never occurs to them to ask "hang on, how does this idea that a man can born in a woman's body and vice versa fit with the general acceptance that saying men and women are born with different types of personality is regressive sexism? Where exactly is this mannyness or womanyness coming from?" Or "has anyone actually proved that trans women's social role and behaviour is close enough to female people's to justify lumping them together legally, statistically and socially?"

Redapplewreath · 17/06/2021 13:15

Obama is heartbroken by women and children still having rights despite male people wanting really badly to remove them.

Seriously.

Get a fucking grip man.

joolzfromyork · 17/06/2021 16:29

@merrymouse
Quite happy to believe that, but you would need to first acknowledge that two separate groups are involved and that there is a conflict of interests.

I have no problem at all acknowledging that multiple groups have an interest/conflict.

To pick up on the three things that you mentioned in your original post

Prisons, sports, puberty blockers?

Prisons? well its just got completely out of hand now hasn't it ? But we'll come back to that issue last

Sports? The problem we have here (imnsho) is simply solved.

If you (generic) are good at sport and also want to transition then ...

Choose:

Transition Now and Give Up your Sport (as something you do hoping to be a professional/Olympian/ Amateur or School Champion)

OR

Delay Transition and continue to compete in your sport against competitors who share your birth sex.

You CANNOT

Transition and continue to compete in your new gender - this is the option that needs to be removed. (without any bollocks about Testosterone levels etc)

It would be a hard choice for all committed sportspeople but it is a Choice that they can make individually, Sport or Transition, Whichever is more important to them and if they choose sport they can do so knowing that Transition remains an option when Sports careers are done.

Puberty Blockers ?

Ugh. Never took them myself and remain unconvinced that anyone can take blockers for a period of time and (perhaps after a change of heart/mind)stop taking them and have no long term damage.

So ... lets make the minimum age to use Blockers at least 16 ... and yes, doing so would negate the benefits of taking blockers, since people are well in to puberty at 16.

But ... if an individual wants to use blockers at the age of 16 then ok ... because all human beings have autonomy over their own bodies and life decisions. But use of blockers should not be available to anyone who is not in a recognised care pathway, and has not been attending psychotherapy for at least 2 years From the age of 16 - which means blockers can only be accessed by people over the age of 18 (and frankly, I am not sure what the point of a blocker at that age would be ... probably -hopefully- minimal or none).

Now, the Prison thing ... is it fucking stupid or what?

What follows will get me slapped by both sides of this debate but it is my considered opinion (whatever that might mean Smile )

WE need to give serious consideration to the introduction of Two Tier 'Gender Recognition Certificates'.

Tier 1 is available to anyone who wishes to use/enter a care pathway which may or may not lead to medical/surgical bodily changes.

Holding a Tier 1 certificate confers NO rights to be sent to a Woman's Prison (or use changing rooms etc used by your target Gender) It simply permits an individual to declare their intent to undertake gender change (for want of a better phrase) and gives access to medical services (Psychotherapy, Hormone Therapy etc)

Tier 2 would only be available to individuals who have completed both social and medical transition (what we refer to as Post-Op). This tier would give access to a Women's Prison if req (and looking at the whole prison question over the last few years, it strikes me that some men make outlandish claims to be women because they think it will gain them an advantage ... so remove all the advantages ... yes, anyone can transition, even a prisoner but if this is a new discovery on the prisoners part then said prisoner will be entitled to a Tier 1 GRC and thus must serve their sentence in a prison that matches their birth sex.

OUCH Grin

I know that no one likes these sorts of compromises (Whichever side of the debate you may be on) but some kind of compromise must be reached ... maybe (probably) not this but something similar ...

Oh and just to confirm, TRA's do NOT speak for me or on my behalf ... EVER.

Have a good day ...

UppityPuppity · 17/06/2021 16:35

Tier 2 would only be available to individuals who have completed both social and medical transition (what we refer to as Post-Op). This tier would give access to a Women's Prison if req

That’ll be a no from me.

And most women in prison I suspect.

merrymouse · 17/06/2021 16:44

joolzfromyork

Yes! Whether or not I agree with any of your suggestions individually, that is the kind of conversation that is necessary.

Unfortunately it’s completely prohibited in the current climate.

PurpleHoodie · 17/06/2021 17:14

Thelnebriati

Maine is about to make women's prisons mixed sex.

It's purposeful actions like these that mean the Republicans were always going to get in at their election (even before the last one was called).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2021 20:09

I read a horrible graphic description of the sadistic murder committed by an MTF trans person in Maine when said person still identified as male, and was now petitioning for access to a women's prison. He had tied a woman between trees, cut her open with a knife, and waited for her to bleed to death. That's the kind of violent male who women will be sharing with.

twitter.com/fem_mb/status/1405044529489645568?s=20

A newspaper report of the crime I found online:

www.seacoastonline.com/article/20040812/news/308129968

PurpleHoodie · 17/06/2021 23:34

I meant "next election" in my previous post.

Yes Eresh. More, and more men 'transing' to enter female prison estates worldwide.

I didn't read your links, but could imagine how awful the descriptions were. Scumbag man.

Times have changed a now people are praising sociapathic men like this as "Stunning and Brave" if they want to go to womens prisons (after conviction)

Fuck. Right. Off.

WhiteFeministWarMachine · 18/06/2021 08:29

Tier 2 would only be available to individuals who have completed both social and medical transition (what we refer to as Post-Op). This tier would give access to a Women's Prison if req (and looking at the whole prison question over the last few years, it strikes me that some men make outlandish claims to be women because they think it will gain them an advantage ... so remove all the advantages ... yes, anyone can transition, even a prisoner but if this is a new discovery on the prisoners part then said prisoner will be entitled to a Tier 1 GRC and thus must serve their sentence in a prison that matches their birth sex.

Absolutely not. They are not women.

334bu · 18/06/2021 08:51

There are lots of answers that could be offered ... Fair Compromises that could be made.

Why can trans. athletes not continue to do sport in their sex category even if they transition?
Why if trans prisoners are unsafe in their own sex sector,. are we not campaigning to make these areas safe? Why do women have to have mixed sex provision because male prisons are unsafe for some males.?
Why do all female single sex spaces have to change? Why not campaign for third spaces? Why is s the only compromise women giving up all rights to single sex spaces? Where is the compromise in that?

joolzfromyork · 18/06/2021 09:31

@WhiteFeministWarMachine

Absolutely not. They are not women.
@UppityPuppity
That’ll be a no from me.

And this makes my point Smile

Compromise is not weakness, we do it all the time in life.

You don't like what I've written? fine ... come back at me with something like ...

Post Ops in a women's prison are not a good idea but on a segregated wing within the women's prison estate but without any ability to transfer into the general Female population ... maybe Grin

Remembering, of course that we are only talking about Post-Op Transsexual women of whom the country currently has probably less than 5000.

So (and excuse me but I really am shit at maths) the current population is about 68,000,000 of whom approx 85,000 are in prison (2018 numbers).
so % of people in prison in UK is approx 0.13 (ie 13/100 of 1%)

Applying that figure to the Post-Op population of 5000 gives .... (aww shit, this is gonna take a minGrin)

Ummm I think that gives me a population of approx 7 (Post Op) people in Prison at any one time ... (which sounds high really, but I am shit at maths)
Assuming that my numbers are correct (and please tell me if I'm wrong) is it not possible to find a compromise around a number of seven?

(course I took the whole prison population numbers and did not differentiate on gender/sex cos then the total prison pop is less than 4000 (women) and the numbers become miniscule (0.0117%) But thought that might be seen as provocative ... Grin)

There is a reasonable compromise to be found if we want to find it ...

WhiteFeministWarMachine · 18/06/2021 09:35

There is a reasonable compromise to be found if we want to find it ...

Why should we compromise womens' dignity, comfort and safety? There is no guarantee that post-op transwomen are any less likely to commit sexual or violent crimes than men.

Post-op transwomen can have a wing in a men's prison.

NecessaryScene · 18/06/2021 09:38

There are some things were compromise is not a concept you should be looking at.

Things like boundaries and consent.

Given "I want to be here with you" or "I want to do this with you" versus "no", there is no compromise position.

NecessaryScene · 18/06/2021 09:40

So, in a prison context, this can be compelled. Prison infringes people's rights and freedoms, and boundaries and consent.

So the question then is, should overriding women's refusal to consent to be with males be part of the punishment?

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 18/06/2021 09:40

Well lets see if he remains heartbroken when lots of de-transitioners start filing lawsuits as they grow older and group together.
The USA has such a cavaliar attitude towards medicalising young adolescents and as the Kiara Bell case shows, the lack of capacity for consent at such a young age can be proved in law.
The Adderall scandal showed that medical lobby groups hold far too much power in American politics and Obama did not tackle them.