What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

She said quite clearly why she supports Miranda. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a woman to support a male transsexual who understands women's concerns and respects our feelings.

As I have pointed out Miramda is a detransitioned PRE OP transsexual without a GRC.

Do you really think after decades the law will revoke all transsexual laws? Will my birth certificate by changed back?

I have no idea and I don't see what it has to do with female spaces when the law already allows an exemption. I don't see this future speculation as a productive line of debate. You have your views, and I have mine.

As I have pointed out Miramda is a detransitioned PRE OP transsexual without a GRC.

Who respects women enough not to use female spaces. That's all I care about. It's not a competition.

@BlueLipstickRocks

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

Within the nonsense that is the trans umbrella there are a vast array of reasons why a person who identifies as a "transwoman" uses a woman's space. For some it is about a self declared gender identity, for some I accept it can be more nefarious reasons. For me as a post op transsexual my use of women's toilets is both about safety and the fact that the facilities offered meet me needs whereas make facilities do not. It is also about dysmorphia and dysphoria.

The legal definition of female and the biological definition of female are not the same thing. "Same sex" applies to same legal sex, not same biological sex.

The law has been grossly distorted by Stonewall and far too many have taken on board this manipulation.

A couple of quick points:

1. The protected characteristic is gender reassignment. It is not gender identity. One if Stonewalls lies.
2. A protected characteristic doesn't change a person's legal sex. There are now 650,000 people who identify as trans in the UK. For over 645,000 of these for all the protestations their legal sex is their biological sex. That's over 99.2%!
3. Legal sex can be changed through a GRC. Its not a perfect system and it needs changed but it's not completely broken.
4. Sex based laws apply to legal sex. For example Sex Discrimination is not biological sex but legal sex.

The spirit of the law was never about the nonsense we see now. It was about a very small number (5,000) being able to address dysmorphia and dysphoria and integrate following a complex medical transition.

As this debate goes on I believevwe will reach a position where a woman's space becomes a penis free zone. I don't believe it will be restricted to biological sex.

This makes sense and seems fair to me. There seems to be a case for someone who has gone through complex reassignment and surgery to become a woman (and no penis) to be able to use women’s single sex toilets and changing rooms. The numbers of people who have gone through this are very small, and therefore the amount of ‘biological men’ will be very small and I do think surely the dangers will be small compared to the harms someone who has gone through surgery may face.

@BlueLipstickRocks

That’s why I think third spaces are best. That is a reasonable compromise IMO.

And until third spaces happen whats the compromise ?

As an aside, I find it sad that Stonewall haven’t been campaigning for third spaces. If they had, there’d be more now.

The compromise, in the absence of a third space that you could use, would depend on the situation and the facilities on offer. I don’t think there’s a blanket answer to that.

If you look back at my earlier post, you’ll see I add TW after men when I’m talking about the biological sex class of males. You’ll also see, I hope, that I’m trying to choose my words with thought so as to cause you minimum distress. I don’t see you as a man. I see you as a TW. I do see you as a member of the biological sex class of males. Usually your membership of that class is not something I would refer to or need to mention, or even need to think about really, but with regard to a small number of cases I would.

It will take years for things to change and none of us know how that change will go. Self ID could still get in - there's enough money behind the agenda.

The moral thing to do. The right thing to do flies out the window. Protect the vulnerable. Sweet coercive words out the window.

The minority who have the power and the pounds to ride roughshod over women. Women who are the vulnerable and relatively powerless demographic majority.

Can someone tell me where these riots at the introduction of same sex marriage happened in the '80's? I can only remember the miners' strike.

*As I have pointed out Miramda is a detransitioned PRE OP transsexual without a GRC.

Who respects women enough not to use female spaces. That's all I care about. It's not a competition.*

We are talking about post op transsexuals with a GRC and protections under the law. Miranda is not part of that group. If men arent allowed to speak for women why is a former pre op trans person with a GRC allowed to speak for me?

From what I have seen women can generally spot a mile off who is a risk and who isn't.

I can't take this seriously any more. Blue, you know nothing about women's lives.

Not only can women not tell who might assault or kill them, they regularly fall in love with, and marry them.

Excellent point, Datun. And now we're being expected to put aside our discomfort and ignore our instincts for the benefit of others, "to be kind".

What was in it for men when women stood up for their rights? Its about equality. Throughout history a majority always opposes the minorities. Back in the 80s look at what happened when gay marriage was introduced? There were protests and riots on the streets declaring the ruin of society.
Women standing up for our rights has never resulted in the removal of any men's rights. Men were not made to take a pay cut when women campaigned for equal pay, men did not lose the vote when women gained the vote. Gays campaigning for and achieving same sex marriage did not remove the rights of any other group. Trans ideology requires the dismantling of women's hard won rights. What's equal about that?

If men arent allowed to speak for women why is a former pre op trans person with a GRC allowed to speak for me?

I'm not allowing Miranda to speak for you. I've already heard, several times, your side of things. As I said, it isn't a competition.

*From what I have seen women can generally spot a mile off who is a risk and who isn't.

I can't take this seriously any more. Blue, you know nothing about women's lives.

Not only can women not tell who might assault or kill them, they regularly fall in love with, and marry them.*

This was not te context I was referring to.

I was talking about the feedback I have had literally hundreds of times from women that they felt able to make an instant instinctive decision over whether or not they felt safe around a trans person.

I was talking about the feedback I have had literally hundreds of times from women that they felt able to make an instant instinctive decision over whether or not they felt safe around a trans person.

With all due respect, they would say that to you, as a trans person, wouldn't they, especially if they know you personally and feel you are a decent person?

@BlueLipstickRocks

*From what I have seen women can generally spot a mile off who is a risk and who isn't.

I can't take this seriously any more. Blue, you know nothing about women's lives.

Not only can women not tell who might assault or kill them, they regularly fall in love with, and marry them.*

This was not te context I was referring to.

I was talking about the feedback I have had literally hundreds of times from women that they felt able to make an instant instinctive decision over whether or not they felt safe around a trans person.

Statistically, that is quite clearly not born out. Women cannot tell which male is a danger in which male isn't. It's impossible. Good lord. If we could tell, don't you think we bloody well would???

The tell for me personally, is that anyone who is demanding to get in my space against my will, is already raising a red flag. For me, personally.

It is not inly about safety. It is about privacy and dignity too. I am getting increasingly fed up with the almost exclusive focus on safety. It is a very male perspective; if they are not raping you, what is the problem?

I do not want to sleep or take my clothes of in the company of any man, regardless of his legal sex/gender status and regardless of any drugs he may be taking, and regardless of any amputations he may have had.

The answer is NO, and no one else can consent on my behalf. And it is not my responsibility to think up some other way of catering to the desires/needs of men who prefer to think of themselves as women.

I'm not really that interested in whether someone has a GRC or has had surgery, to be perfectly honest. I don't make the same distinctions as others. As I said, I don't support the idea of a group of male people, however small, accessing female only space.

I value the consideration of male people who have respect for women and girls in not using female only space, even when they probably could override my lack of consent. I am not alone in this need for female only space, it's a feeling shared by very many women.

I am highly unlikely to change my mind, but people are fully entitled to disagree.

The tell for me personally, is that anyone who is demanding to get in my space against my will, is already raising a red flag. For me, personally.

Exactly this. That sense of entitlement is enough to keep him out.

It is not inly about safety. It is about privacy and dignity too. I am getting increasingly fed up with the almost exclusive focus on safety. It is a very male perspective; if they are not raping you, what is the problem?

Yes, me too. This is 99% about the feelings, therapeutic goals and validation of males, and women's feelings and emotional wellbeing seemingly don't count, do they?

Women might have a valid objection on the grounds of safety risk, but silly women, it's such a small risk we can handwave it away without even offering any reassurance by saying it's not enough reason to derail the glorious trans rights agenda.

What's it it for you is that it's morally the right thing to do. hard disagree from me on this one, the morally right thing is for men to never, ever claim to be or try to pass themselves off as women, the group they’ve been oppressing for centuries. If you want to wear female style clothing, have a feminine name or hairstyle then more power to you, but try to use the law to enforce the lie that you’re a woman? No. Just no.

*I'm not really that interested in whether someone has a GRC or has had surgery, to be perfectly honest. I don't make the same distinctions as others. As I said, I don't support the idea of a group of male people, however small, accessing female only space.

I value the consideration of male people who have respect for women and girls in not using female only space, even when they probably could override my lack of consent. I am not alone in this need for female only space, it's a feeling shared by very many women.*

Once again its seen as transsexuals as just another type of man.

Transsexuals undertake a long and dangerous medical pathway to deal with dysphoria and dysmorohia. It's not about consideration to avoid a female space - to suggest such a thing shows a profound lack of knowledge over what it means to be transsexual. You really expect someone to go through reassignment surgery and still use the mens? If I was capable of doing some of the things you expect me to do then I would have needed to transition and by extension would be transsexual.

One of the big issues here is this unwillingness to consider that whilst transsexuals were indeed male born that doesn't mean its appropriate to attach the typical male gender stereotypes to them.

Being transsexual is not an identity - it's a diagnosis. In what other condition is it OK to constantly ensure someone is reminded of the thing that caused intense distress and severe impairment?

Everyone here is entitled to an opinion. Not everyone agrees. Is it really necessary though to constantly refer to a transsexual as a man? You can believe it all you like - it doesn't mean it doesn't cause offense and distress to use such language.

the morally right thing is for men to never, ever claim to be or try to pass themselves off as women

Its called Transsexualism. Its called Gender Identity Disorder. Both psychological disorders. These are not choices. You think I wanted to pursue a dangerous medical process? You think I had major surgery for fun?

So the morally right thing for me to do is to not have a psychological disorder?

Thats ridiculous.

You seem to think your dysphoria trumps everything else but it doesn’t, you can’t control other people’s thoughts and feelings, some women will have to self select out of things if transsexuals are in those spaces, why should any woman be forced out because of your dysphoria?

hard disagree from me on this one

Me too. I don't consider enabling the dismantling of women's sex based rights "the moral thing to do" and I don't appreciate having it dictated to me what I should think about issues which concern me and those sex based rights.

Once again its seen as transsexuals as just another type of man.

Not what I said, but if you are determined to put words into my mouth, have at it.

You really expect someone to go through reassignment surgery and still use the mens?

People have suggested third spaces. As you know.

You seem to think your dysphoria trumps everything else but it doesn’t, you can’t control other people’s thoughts and feelings, some women will have to self select out of things if transsexuals are in those spaces, why should any woman be forced out because of your dysphoria?

Why should I be forced into male spaces because of it?

I have never said it trumps anything. Why are you saying its irrelevant?