What right to a single sex space do I have and how?

[Avocadowoman]

I saw a comment on another thread and it got me thinking. The comment was (broadly):

'A woman's right to a single sex space cannot co-exist with a transwoman's right to enter a woman's space based on gender identity'.

That is undoubtably true. If a transwoman enters a female space that space is no longer single sex.

However I am unsure what legal rights exist to give women the right to single sex spaces. The trouble seems to be that the law seems to assume that they are something someone will want to provide, and go from there.

Workplace regulations mean I have the right to a single sex toilet at work (but we all know how many workplaces ignore that in their transgender policies).

I haven't looked into prisons legislation.

But I think everything else is based on a providers right to provide a single sex service. If they choose to provide one great, if not I don't think I have the right to one.

If a provider chosses to open a female space to transgender women without a GRC, the people who are being discriminated against (legally) are, I think, not women, but men who would like to access that space but who are turned away and do not say they are transwomen. This makes it much harder to deal with through litigation, I think.

Clearly females are discriminated against in the same way by not being able to go into male spaces if those male spaces are open to transmen without a GRC, but that doesn't help me if what I want is a female space.

If my religion was one which forbade me to (for example) undress with men, then possibly the lack of provision of a single sex space may be discrimination due to my religion - but as it happens that is not my religion so that doesn't help me.

That means that where the single sex space is provided by the government (prison, hospital, school etc) it is the government we can petition to keep those spaces single sex. And that is useful because the government would not want to have a policy that is 'hypothetically discrimatory' if I can put it like that (eg discriminates against a woman who wants to enter a male single sex space, even though that is less likely to happen).

But sports, for example, therefore need to be taken up with each provider/governing body.

Am I missing something? Ot do women actually have very few 'rights to single sex spaces' compared to 'the right to provide a single sex space'?

To use the phrase "therapeutic facility" is clearly intended to be inflammatory.

You have the right to hold that opinion but I am not going to respond to such a loaded question.

You agreed with a poster who said it was necessary to a "therapeutic goal", you said it was "spot on".

I therapeutic goal in respect of daily living is not the same as saying a toilet is being used as a therapeutic facility.

I disagree, that's semantics.

I think it comes down to "do you agree that natal women should be allowed to discuss their needs, their rights under law and what they plan to campaign for that is specifically for their group without the supervision of those not part of that group, but who would like some control over the outcome to meet their own needs?'

Quite.

therapeutic goal in respect of daily living is not the same as saying a toilet is being used as a therapeutic facility.
Can you explain the difference then because I don't see how one term can be 'absolutely spot on' while the other is 'inflammatory'?'

@BlueLipstickRocks

* I don’t think the majority of transsexuals are looking for women to validate them here, but are using female space as they genuinely believe that is the most appropriate space for them. Their goal being to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That is the therapeutic goal.*

Absolutely spot on.

So, women's spaces being used as a place in which to achieve such therapeutic goals is 'spot on'.

Let me get this straight. The poster enthusiastically agrees with this description of the use of women's spaces as places to achieve a therapeutic goal.

Yet when called out on the fact that the women in such spaces may not be happy for them to be used as places to achieve a therapeutic goal (and that their consent is not sought), they find it inflammatory.

Women's rights to reply are inflammatory. To the extend this perspective itself must be erased. Well, surprised I am at such honesty and integrity. They'd be a couple of goals to aim for.

Of course it's casting aspertions. You say "women don't want them"... surveys have shown that the majority of women accept post op transsexuals and refuse self ID…..I am very much not unsympathetic but beither am I going to sacrifice myself because I am to be made responsible for my biological sex class

No, it is not casting aspersions. My brother can’t use the female toilets. He doesn’t think that’s casting aspersions about him. To be clear, I don’t think you or the vast majority of TW like you have any nefarious intentions. It’s not about you, it’s about keeping the toilets/dorms/whatever single sex for the benefit of women. It is not to punish you, it is not to suggest you’re a bad person or untrustworthy in any way, any more than it is to suggest my nephew is bad or untrustworthy.

Yes, some women are fine with TW in female toilets. I was in the past too, but then it was pointed out to me that it’s not just about me, it’s about all the female people who use those toilets. It doesn’t matter if 100 women use a certain toilet and only a couple care about it being single sex. Those women’s feelings should be respected, and the toilets should remain single sex.

I don’t hold you responsible for your biological sex class any more than I hold my male relatives and friends responsible. I repeat - I have no reason to think you’re a bad person. I am not blaming you for the actions of other members of your biological sex class. I just want the single sex female toilets to remain single sex.

I’m sorry that that upsets you. I understand that you don’t want to use the men’s toilets and I’m truly sympathetic to that. That’s why I think third spaces are best. That is a reasonable compromise IMO.

I wish you well.

That’s why I think third spaces are best. That is a reasonable compromise IMO.

And until third spaces happen whats the compromise ?

I don’t think the majority of transsexuals are looking for women to validate them here, but are using female space as they genuinely believe that is the most appropriate space for them. Their goal being to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That is the therapeutic goal.

Absolutely spot on.

So, women's spaces being used as a place in which to achieve such therapeutic goals is 'spot on'.*

What is spot on is the statement that my goal is to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That does not mean I see a toilet as a therapeutic facility but simply the one that best serves my clinic needs.

@BlueLipstickRocks

That’s why I think third spaces are best. That is a reasonable compromise IMO.

And until third spaces happen whats the compromise ?

If it's 5000 people then disabled facilities will serve for the moment. I'm the mum of a disabled child. It's not ideal but gender dysphoria is a type of hidden disability. This should be a temporary measure as 'trans' has had such an explosion in numbers clearly separate provision is needed.

If it's 5000 people then disabled facilities will serve for the moment.

So let's see..... the law allows transsexuals to use womens spaces. Some women object to this. So the compromise is a solution that entirely suits a minority of women and does absolutely nothing for transsexuals?! Where's the compromise in that - its giving you everything you want and has me giving up on my legal rights.

This should be a temporary measure as 'trans' has had such an explosion in numbers clearly separate provision is needed.

Transsexuals have not had an explosion in numbers. But solution is to just chuck the whole lot transsexual, transgender etc into the disabled?

I have said I support individual unisex spaces. I did not comment farther than that.

That might work with toilets if they were properly designed but still does not cover the problems of refuges,prisons,hospital wards, hostels etc. Are women just expected to accept that they will be mixed sex ? Are women not entitled to spaces away from the opposite sex when they are vulnerable?

Transexuals are only a tiny proportion of transwomen. What about all the rest? Who checks?

and does absolutely nothing for transsexuals?!

Genuine question - why does it do nothing for transsexuals? It’s similar in set up to the self contained unisex loos isn’t it?

Are women not entitled to spaces away from the opposite sex when they are vulnerable?

Are transsexuals not entitled to spaces away from men when they are vulnerable? Your entire position relies on treating men as the enemy and transsexuals as being no different to any biological men.

Despite what you want to believe not everyone sees a woman and a transsexual together as mixed sex; certainly not the same way as a stereotypical man.

@BlueLipstickRocks

*Blue wants individual unisex spaces, but there can't be single sex spaces provided in addition because, reasons.

& there can't be third spaces because THERE JUST CAN'T, I think was the gist, because, reasons.*

Please do not attribute views to me that I have never said.

I have said I support individual unisex spaces. I did not comment farther than that.

You've said a couple of times on different threads that you don't think third spaces would be acceptable, although admittedly you've also ignored the question several times!

So: unisex individual spaces over here, as you've stated is your preference, single sex female over there. Would that be something you could live with?

You'd have privacy, & there would be women using the same facility so you would not be being forced into a male facility.

The only difference between this & what you are proposing is the existence of another space for biological females, the existence of which you are absolutely welcome to ignore.

That would work, maybe?

Genuine question - why does it do nothing for transsexuals? It’s similar in set up to the self contained unisex loos isn’t it?

Using a disabled space when you aren't disabled is clearly inappropriate. There are so few and in being there I block a facility that has specific provision that only a disabled person can use.n

You also keep saying" give up my legal rights" What rights do you have to access female only space ,if a single sex exemption has been judged appropriate?

You also keep saying" give up my legal rights" What rights do you have to access female only space ,if a single sex exemption has been judged appropriate?

Where a specific exemption has been identified and enacted I do not. Such exemptions however do not apply to toilets and changing rooms for example.

The same law you want to rely on for an exemption is the same law that supports me where there isn't an exemption. Is the law only valid when it is in your favour?

@BlueLipstickRocks

I don’t think the majority of transsexuals are looking for women to validate them here, but are using female space as they genuinely believe that is the most appropriate space for them. Their goal being to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That is the therapeutic goal.

Absolutely spot on.

So, women's spaces being used as a place in which to achieve such therapeutic goals is 'spot on'.*

What is spot on is the statement that my goal is to blend back into society as much as possible as women. That does not mean I see a toilet as a therapeutic facility but simply the one that best serves my clinic needs.

No, that's rubbish. You said 'spot on' to the lot. All in black and white. Obviously it will be all 'faux inflammatory' if I am simply repeating what you yourself are stating. Use of women's spaces is part of a therapeutic goal. Being in women's spaces.

My concern is that we women aren't asked if we give our consent to this use of our spaces and unwittingly be part of this process of a reaching/achieving someone's therapeutic goal.

Well yes, that's why it would need to be a temporary measure.
In reality you'd likely just continue to use the ladies as you ignore the reasons why it should be single sex anyway.
But once third spaces were up and running you'd have a catered space and that should be good enough.

@BlueLipstickRocks

You also keep saying" give up my legal rights" What rights do you have to access female only space ,if a single sex exemption has been judged appropriate?

Where a specific exemption has been identified and enacted I do not. Such exemptions however do not apply to toilets and changing rooms for example.

The same law you want to rely on for an exemption is the same law that supports me where there isn't an exemption. Is the law only valid when it is in your favour?

Where is the legislation/ caselaw that says toilets and changing rooms are not (ever) covered by the SS exemption?

My concern is that we women aren't asked if we give our consent to this use of our spaces and unwittingly be part of this process of a reaching/achieving someone's therapeutic goal.

Exactly. I don't, for the record. I'm not here for the benefit of others, as a prop in their scenery.

So the compromise is a solution that entirely suits a minority of women

Who number in the hundreds of thousands to millions as we've discussed on various threads now, unlike the 3k or so MTF trans people with GRC. Please stop minimising women's feelings.

A transsexual with a GRC is legally female "for all purposes". Do you believe the intent of the law is to exclude transsexuals from the spaces of their legal gender?

To quote "Those with a GRC "should be treated in their acquired gender for all purposes". That means that anyone who identifies themselves as a woman can already use separate-sex facilities such as changing rooms, toilets or single-sex gyms"

Who number in the hundreds of thousands to millions as we've discussed on various threads now, unlike the 3k or so MTF trans people with GRC. Please stop minimising women's feelings.

So majority should always have precedent?

I find it bizarre that the argument is that because there are more women than transsexuals with a GRC that allows you to dictate a position and disregard the law.
What about the fact that the majority of women in a Gov survey stated support for post op transsexuals? Do only those who support your position get a say?