Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?pg=1

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

As I said on the linked thread, I thought sex/gender was the basis of feminism and therefore a bit odd to split it off.

I absolutely, 100% object to this.

How would it be possible to separate sex and gender issues from the rest of feminism? That sounds utterly daft.

That's going to be tricky. How do you discuss feminism without mentioning sex?

I think it's a good idea. People who felt upset by the general consensus on FWR could hide the 'gender' topic but still see discussions on other aspects of feminism.

Oh I see - you want FWR to be lib-fem central? Well I think we've got the message loud and clear

The basis of women's oppression as a sex class is sex.

That said, I could stand to know more of MN's reasoning.

I'm assuming sex and gender issues might be a euphemism for issues with transgender ideology, but even then it seems odd to split it off as issues with transgender ideology are still core to feminism.

I think streamlining the other sub topics is sensible.
I think having a separate Sex & Gender topic is daft. Male bodied people encroaching on women's spaces is about sex, not about gender.

They could perhaps have a Gender topic so maybe separate LBG and T boards. Then people who believe in a spectrum of genders can discuss them to their heart's content.

But leave feminism to be about issues impacting biological women?

That will be a nightmare to moderate! Surely any discussion about sex and gender starts with the definition of the people affected by their sex ie women

Also I think TRA would trumpet it as a victory and spin it as FWR having to be hived off because it’s all so awful and ‘transphobic’ which at the time of MF victory and at a time when finally -finally!! the grown ups are back in the room, the timing feels like a kick in the teeth

@Clymene

Oh I see - you want FWR to be lib-fem central? Well I think we've got the message loud and clear

I was actually thinking that might be a more sensible way to split things. Have a GC feminism board, and a lib-fems board?

Surely it's so women who are interested in feminist issues without wanting to get dragged in to the "trans debates" can do so.

Which would you prefer? Women engaging in other important issues or not engaging at all.

It's badly worded by MNHQ, but I get where they're coming from.

Then people who believe in a spectrum of genders can discuss them to their heart's content.

I wonder if it will also draw in other considerations - such as areas for parenting children of particular ages who might wish to discuss matters away from general heat and light?

So what goes under sex and gender? And how does discussion of these topics differ from women's rights? We couldn't, for example, talk about women's health without acknowledging what a woman is or how language like 'person with...' undermines that healthcare. We cannot discuss violence against women and girls without aknowlwdging where that violence comes from and the need for safe spaces away from men/males. We can't talk about getting increasing women's leadership roles without acknowleding the gendered assumptions and toys that stop women progressing and on them being kind instead. We can't talk about discrimination in the work place without talking about what that is based on (sex) and the negative impacts of women having or assumed they might have children, of the need for measure to counteract the impact of our biology and how declaring our sex in emails (pronouns) can be harmful.

I can't think of one area of women's rights that is not impacted by our sex and negatively impacted by gender ideology.

Why should sex be in the same topic as gender?

@Arbadacarba

I think it's a good idea. People who felt upset by the general consensus on FWR could hide the 'gender' topic but still see discussions on other aspects of feminism.

What aspects of feminism are there that don't involve sex?

They could perhaps have a Gender topic so maybe separate LBG and T boards. Then people who believe in a spectrum of genders can discuss them to their heart's content

That sounds very logical to me.

@MilkTwoSugarsThanks

Surely it's so women who are interested in feminist issues without wanting to get dragged in to the "trans debates" can do so.

Which would you prefer? Women engaging in other important issues or not engaging at all.

It's badly worded by MNHQ, but I get where they're coming from.

So not actual feminists then? The biggest threat to women is the erosion of their sex based rights. Giving anyone who self identifies as a woman access to single sex toilets, hospital wards, women’s refuges without thinking about how this can potentially impact on the women in need of those services. Or do you think feminism is something else?

Surely anyone can post on the feminism boards about anything g they believe to be relative to the cause. What can't be controlled (without stifling speech) is the replies and where that conversation evolve to-if it takes a gender critical direction then what?

This doesn't make sense. MNHQ want the FWR section to enable users to discuss the myriad ways that sex and gender roles affect women.... but they don't want users to discuss sex or gender in FWR?? Huh?

This makes no sense - you can't discuss feminism without talking about sex and gender. Women have historically been oppressed on the basis of their sex.

Paraphrasing someone in the site stuff thread. The purpose of this seems to be to distinguish the biggest grassroots, women's rights movement of this century from feminism.

It's not okay and it plays exactly into what anti women activists want.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

That will be a nightmare to moderate! Surely any discussion about sex and gender starts with the definition of the people affected by their sex ie women

Also I think TRA would trumpet it as a victory and spin it as FWR having to be hived off because it’s all so awful and ‘transphobic’ which at the time of MF victory and at a time when finally -finally!! the grown ups are back in the room, the timing feels like a kick in the teeth

This.

Feminism is strongly about disconnecting gender stereotypes from sex

I don't think this has been thought through but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise by anyone with further info.

What is great about fwr currently is that a lot of posters bring knowledge, experience and critical thinking and are honestly up for debate. Will this decision mean that any criticism or invitation to think more deeply will be banned or told to go to another board? I can't think of a single feminist issue that hasn't been compromised and complicated by the current trans rights activism.

I really really don't want to talk about gender so much. My passions are early childhood, trauma and solutions to male violence. Unfortunately it is impossible not to have to talk about gender ideology in all of these areas.

It is not our fault this is where feminism currently is. I can't imagine having a board for another rights campaign where those with an understanding of the structural inequalities that are the very basis for that rights campaign to even exist are asked to keep their thoughts separate.

They could perhaps have a Gender topic so maybe separate LBG and T boards. Then people who believe in a spectrum of genders can discuss them to their heart's content

That sounds very logical to me.

This sounds good to me too