Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?pg=1

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

As I said on the linked thread, I thought sex/gender was the basis of feminism and therefore a bit odd to split it off.

@parietal

I think there are plenty of discussions that could be happening on the feminism boards that start from the shared assumption that sex matters etc, but then move on to other topics. so

• how do we ensure equal pay?
• what do we think of porn? is all porn always bad?
• what practical steps should schools take to reduce assaults of girls?
• what would improve care around pregnancy & childbirth?

All those conversations could & should be happening on the FWR boards somewhere, and sometimes it feels like they are drowned out by the discussion of gender & trans issues.

What's stopping you starting a thread on any of these topics?

Define "drowned out".

@heathspeedwell

How would it be possible to separate sex and gender issues from the rest of feminism? That sounds utterly daft.

I've commented on that thread saying pretty much the same thing. If sex and/or gender isn't relevant to the discussion, its not going to be about feminism at all, is it?

My prediction is that the new board "cunty corner" or whatever will take over from fwr/feminist chat and the fwr/feminist chat will start with a few threads trying to be inclusive of 'all' women and then go quiet or not really be about feminism but more general discussions.

@parietal

I think there are plenty of discussions that could be happening on the feminism boards that start from the shared assumption that sex matters etc, but then move on to other topics. so

• how do we ensure equal pay?
• what do we think of porn? is all porn always bad?
• what practical steps should schools take to reduce assaults of girls?
• what would improve care around pregnancy & childbirth?

All those conversations could & should be happening on the FWR boards somewhere, and sometimes it feels like they are drowned out by the discussion of gender & trans issues.

These conversations ARE happening though.

There seems to be this idea that regular posters only post about the conflicts of right between different groups. This is simply not true but it is being perpetuated.

If topics have no relevance to gender, gender doesn't get discussed on that thread. You do then have the visibility of the many eyes that visit and have the ability to select the threads they wish to interact with. Just like all the other boards on MN. So, you get a greater diversity of opinions, experiences and voices on those threads compared to if it was on a board with reduced traffic.

We also don't have the capacity to merge threads on this forum. It's not unusual for the same topic to be posted multiple times:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4268111-Oxfam-identifies-women-as-the-root-cause-of-male-sexual-violence

This splits up discussion and people possibly go away with the impression that nobody's interested when there have already been 4 threads on it which they've not seen.

Presumably every thread mentioning anything to do with trans will be shuffled off to the "gender" topic, following the usual monitoring/reporting by (mostly) non-posters.

Just as now every thread on the main boards is shuffled off to FWR.

God forbid society as a whole should see any discussion on the topic. People might be radicalised

I don't see how this could work. Issues of sex and gender are not tangential to women's rights.

I think it's a fantastic idea. There are plenty of feminists like myself who no longer feel at home on the board and have even been told that we aren't feminists just because we disagree over trans issues.
There are many things affecting women that need discussing. They get lost in repeated threads (for example multiple threads on yesterday's judgement that missed the bit where the judge pointed out that harassment was still harassment).

Would like to be able to engage with feminism board without coming across transphobic stuff

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

My prediction is that the new board "cunty corner" or whatever will take over from fwr/feminist chat and the fwr/feminist chat will start with a few threads trying to be inclusive of 'all' women and then go quiet or not really be about feminism but more general discussions.

I've suggested it be called "The Gulag" for clarity.

that missed the bit where the judge pointed out that harassment was still harassment)

That but wasn’t missed at all. In fact it was discussed at length.

*bit

I think it's a terrible idea. I've started threads on all kinds of topics in FWR, not just gender identity related ones. Sounds like a lame excuse by those who aren't interested in putting in any effort to start discussions on topics that supposedly interest them.

It's a ridiculous idea. Sex is not an offshoot of feminism, it's the fucking bones of it.

I've suggested it be called "The Gulag" for clarity.

@DellaPorter

Would like to be able to engage with feminism board without coming across transphobic stuff

Is it not possible to simply engage with posts that you are interested in, and ignore threads where you feel the content is "transphobic" - and of course report it for deletion if you felt able to? Just scroll past, or close threads you don't like and move onto ones that interest you?

@DellaPorter

Would like to be able to engage with feminism board without coming across transphobic stuff

Luckily MN moderators are very good at making sure that transphobic posts are not allowed to remain.

I think one of the things that annoys me here is, yet again, the framing of many of our discussions as being about "the trans issue", when we are constantly trying to get across that, for us, we are discussing the rights of women.

Is Bunbury going to relocate to a gulag rather than a pleasant bothy?

The problem is that trans issues affect everything feminism related. You can't separate them out.
Want to talk about maternity policy? First you need to be clear who comes under 'maternity' and how they'd be affected. Is it trans women wanting to come under 'maternity' but not 'paternity' or trans men vice versa.
Could we just refer to the female people who are affected? There are plenty of people thinking that would be offensive too.
You can do exactly the same with every single feminist topic. How can we discuss issues uniquely relating to women (aka feminism) if we can't discuss why issues uniquely relate to women, what women even are or how gender affects us.
There's a reason trans issues come up on every topic. If you change the meaning of what a woman is, then it's going to affect discussion on how and why any issue affects women.

It would only encourage the thread police to stamp their feet and demand threads are moved.

HQ should stop pandering to them and tell them to scroll past like grown ups.

EmbarrassingAdmissions

No more quokka filled islands in the middle of lochs for us then?

Not everybody sees this the same way though. And some people make people who see things differently very unwelcome on the feminist board at the minute. Feminism isn't the same thing as being GC. There isn't one right way to be feminist.

I've suggested it be called "The Gulag" for clarity.
It's still a shocker of an idea but that made me laugh.