Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?pg=1

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

As I said on the linked thread, I thought sex/gender was the basis of feminism and therefore a bit odd to split it off.

I understand that there are posters who are frustrated at the extent to which FWR covers issues around gender ideology, and I've certainly read threads where it feels like a poster has brought in the issue of gender ideology a bit quickly, in

But honestly you are free to post about any FWR issue, there are lots of threads not about gender ideology, you are free to scroll through stuff that doesn't interest you (I'm sure this is something you do on the internet all the time) and as PP said, please do report anything you think is transphobic.

But the fact is that this is a topic that many of us feel is relevant and important to all aspects of womens rights.

How would that work?
I struggle to see how any aspect of feminism could be discussed if one is not permitted to mention what a woman is.

I don't know how to phrase this less clod handed. However, I immediately though conflating gender feelz with a sex thread is like putting an 'All lives matter' with a 'Black Lives Matter' thread.

@GrammarTeacher

I think it's a fantastic idea. There are plenty of feminists like myself who no longer feel at home on the board and have even been told that we aren't feminists just because we disagree over trans issues. There are many things affecting women that need discussing. They get lost in repeated threads (for example multiple threads on yesterday's judgement that missed the bit where the judge pointed out that harassment was still harassment).

So did you bother to post on one of those threads and point this out?

@SoapboxFox

Why should sex be in the same topic as gender?

Given how gender has been used as a tool to dismantle sex based rights how can they be separated?

Feminism and women’s rights are about sex. Rape, sexual assault, forced marriage, child marriage, FGM, maternity rights, abortion rights, trafficking and prostitution, right to breastfeed in public, right to choose how to feed your baby, right to own property, right to have a bank account, right to vote, sexism in medicine (vaginal mesh, predatory doctors and surgeons), right to go to school without being catcalled on the way and assaulted when you are there, etc... and single-sex spaces, prisons, wards, right to ask for a female HCP, etc.

What will the non-sex-related ‘FWR’ have left? Colours of clothes. Presentation and promotion of toys. The Beauty Myth (per Naomi Wolf). Small misogynies. Mainly about media representation and mean things people say - all important too but enough for a topic?

All of the above are adequately covered in the current FWR. It’s essential that they all are. What is the point of carving out the guts of it?

If Mumsnet do this will they rename ‘FWR’ to ‘FWAWIPR’ for women and woman-identifying people’s rights?

@TedImgoingmad I did several times. Got told I wasn't a real feminist because I happened to disagree.

I don't think it will work. But I would welcome a place to discuss feminist issues that are not all about transgender. There are other issues, but you would not know it looking at MN.

How can we separate the issues when everything hinges on the very definition female/woman.

Its already impossible to have a discussion that joins all the dots within the ever moving goalposts that are the guidelines and now there are more obstacles? Who's bright odea was that? The belief in biological sex being protected in law should have made things easier not harder ffs

Crazy idea and clearly unsupported.

@esterwin

I don't think it will work. But I would welcome a place to discuss feminist issues that are not all about transgender. There are other issues, but you would not know it looking at MN.

What is it that stops you posting a thread about these issues currently?

@GrammarTeacher

I think it's a fantastic idea. There are plenty of feminists like myself who no longer feel at home on the board and have even been told that we aren't feminists just because we disagree over trans issues. There are many things affecting women that need discussing. They get lost in repeated threads (for example multiple threads on yesterday's judgement that missed the bit where the judge pointed out that harassment was still harassment).

Fully agree with this.

I suggested this as a separate board a few months ago, good to see this being considered :)

To be fair it's been repeated here quite regularly over the past year since Maya lost her case that her winning wouldn't have meant harassment was allowed.

But don't worry it was brought up quite regularly and Maya's quote about her case not being about the right to harass was posted quite early on.

It's amazing what you can find out if you read threads you don't agree with...

All that will happen is posters will mention sex not gender on every thread whatever its subject. This already happens anyway.
So that means MN either ban lots of posters or just give up and the change becomes meaningless.
I remember when MN tried to create a radical feminism board and it was ignored by everyone.

@dolorsit

To be fair it's been repeated here quite regularly over the past year since Maya lost her case that her winning wouldn't have meant harassment was allowed.

But don't worry it was brought up quite regularly and Maya's quote about her case not being about the right to harass was posted quite early on.

It's amazing what you can find out if you read threads you don't agree with...

Quite.

@GrammarTeacher, which thread were you posting on? I'd like to read what was said for myself.

If there are people who want an additional board to discuss other issues then I think it's up to them to make the case for one, think up a name for it etc. I don't see why an established, well used and fast moving board should be the one that has to be moved.

GrammarTeacher

I was once told that my posts were like essays. I did laugh at that. I was also told how absolutely horrible I was on AIBU because I did not like people sitting on my low garden wall. I still do post though on AIBU.

Why would you let someone's opinion stop you posting about something that you feel strongly about? When someone tells me that I am not a feminist, I just agree. I probably don't fit the mould of a British feminist, but that is ok, because FWR is a hugely diverse chat session and I learn a great deal from listening and interacting with others here. Even if I don't agree with them at all, or just in part.

The constant challenge is all part of the journey.

I think the plan is divisive.

If there is a board for feminism that defines it as not on the basis of sex, what’s the point?

Surely anyone interested in feminism for females as opposed to whoever fancies women’s rights themselves will just move to the other board.

@Floisme

If there are people who want an additional board to discuss other issues then I think it's up to them to make the case for one, think up a name for it etc. I don't see why an established, well used and fast moving board should be the one that has to be moved.

Exactly. Ask for a separate board where posters who are easily upset can go to, rather than disrupting an already well-established, high-traffic one.

@esterwin

I don't think it will work. But I would welcome a place to discuss feminist issues that are not all about transgender. There are other issues, but you would not know it looking at MN.

I can count about 17 threads on the first page (desktop) that are about other things.

I also notice that some days, there are so many threads in use that a day's threads may drift to the next page. This is how important it is to keep this board as it is.

If there are more than fifty active threads in one day, there is a whole lot of discussion going on. I have left other forums because of stagnant threads.

I do sometimes think it may be a problem with the app sometimes on a board I'll only get so many topics listed. Although typically it does seem to be working ok today.

I think its a bad idea. As others have said, the sex vs gender issue runs through everything relating to women's rights, its not some sort of niche, special interest issue. Separating it off is essentially just saying we don't want too many people to stumble across this, lets hide it away. No.

I second the idea of a new lib fem board instead, would be interesting. Also maybe there could be some way of preventing duplicate threads on the same topic, or amalgamating them? That might help to show the spread of topics better. And if you want to discuss something, start a thread! It's not hard.

Why not have a new board for people who want to discuss feminist issues but don’t care whether female is defined as a biological reality or a feeling?