Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?pg=1

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

As I said on the linked thread, I thought sex/gender was the basis of feminism and therefore a bit odd to split it off.

That is a terrible idea!

So not actual feminists then?
The biggest threat to women is the erosion of their sex based rights. Giving anyone who self identifies as a woman access to single sex toilets, hospital wards, women’s refuges without thinking about how this can potentially impact on the women in need of those services.
Or do you think feminism is something else?

Well I certainly don't think feminism is alienating other women for not sharing 100% of your views.

Or alienating other women for wanting to focus on a different topic.

Or alienating other women who don't want to get involved in the fairly specific MN style of trans debate.

Separating the sex/gender topic from the rest of the Feminist board, that is!

I'm wondering how straightforward it will be to appreciate the nuance of gendered roles and expectations (FWR) and gender ideology (whatever the other board is), especially when the latter involves removing human rights from women?

How will this not constantly wrongfoot posters? It's difficult enough for people to understand the special rules here already.

Having said all that above, if/when this does happen, it will be extremely interesting to watch how it plays out. My prediction is that initially it will become populated by those who've not fully understood the debate (not supposed to be condescending, this was me in the recent past). I think that it could start to become dominated by an anti woman agenda and some of those who were keen to see the back of the not-so-fun feminists might get a first hand experience of our concerns.

My DD3 is 12. Yesterday she had a group of boys crowding around her, asking if she'd 'fucked '. Does anyone think that didn't happen because she's female?

I imagine most posters will simply move from FWR to the GC board.

I was actually thinking that might be a more sensible way to split things. Have a GC feminism board, and a lib-fems board?

I wouldn’t mind that.

As far as I'm concerned, feminism is about sex and gender. This sounds like a nonsensical, unworkable idea that will make people even more nervous of posting than they are already, and will also make life even more difficult for Mumsnet moderators.

@Lougle

My DD3 is 12. Yesterday she had a group of boys crowding around her, asking if she'd 'fucked '. Does anyone think that didn't happen because she's female?

It happened because she's a girl. It had nothing to do with trans ideology or boys in girls spaces. I think this is what MNHQ are trying to separate out.

(Please give your daughter a little hug from me - it an awful experience)

I've never quite understood why it's a feminist-exclusive issue, since it doesn't just affect feminists, especially now.

Not having a separate board for GC/GI discussions has allowed the claim that it's just intolerant feminists against trans people.

If MNHQ really are going to split the board, I'd like to see the topic moved out of the Feminist section entirely.

There are people who have feminism hidden because they don’t want to see endless threads about Glinner, JK Rowling or Maya and so on. However they might be interested in a thread about, I don’t know, girls take-up of maths A-level but would miss out on it.

I hope they don't, one of the things I love about the forum is the range of subjects and opinions. And yes the often heated discussions, that's what it's about isn't it?

What a terrible idea

At the point in which the discussion inevitably came to empathy and understanding for why so many teen girls find that a trans identity has protective qualities against this kind of experience, what would happen? Deletion? Scolding? Whole thread moved?

Apologies I meant to reference the PP who mentioned the vile behaviour of teen boys towards a teen girl at school.

I think there are plenty of discussions that could be happening on the feminism boards that start from the shared assumption that sex matters etc, but then move on to other topics. so

• how do we ensure equal pay?
• what do we think of porn? is all porn always bad?
• what practical steps should schools take to reduce assaults of girls?
• what would improve care around pregnancy & childbirth?

All those conversations could & should be happening on the FWR boards somewhere, and sometimes it feels like they are drowned out by the discussion of gender & trans issues.

@parietal

I think there are plenty of discussions that could be happening on the feminism boards that start from the shared assumption that sex matters etc, but then move on to other topics. so

• how do we ensure equal pay?
• what do we think of porn? is all porn always bad?
• what practical steps should schools take to reduce assaults of girls?
• what would improve care around pregnancy & childbirth?

All those conversations could & should be happening on the FWR boards somewhere, and sometimes it feels like they are drowned out by the discussion of gender & trans issues.

Those topics are posted (I posted a very important recent ruling about equal value and pay that garnered almost no responses).

Posters aren't interested in discussing them.

That's fine. They're not topics that engage posters - nor should anyone be compelled to engage with them. I don't take the rejection of the topics in which I'm interested personally.

I can't envisage how it would work in practice. If I wanted to start a thread on the treatment of women in prison would it be hived off to the sex/gender thread if I mention the importance of single sex provision?
Isn't that creating a 2 tier feminism which excludes feminists like me from discussions. Anyone can start a thread on any issue that affects women and girls without being told it's not relevant to the FWR board. I've participated in loads of threads that have no link to trans issues. I really don't see what the problem is, unless some people want to irradicate me from discussions about feminism.

How do we ensure equal pay? Not possible if sex disaggregated data not allowed to be collected in case it hurts some employees.
What practical steps should schools take to reduce assaults on girls?,. Not possible if schools are teaching girls they are not allowed to establish boundaries and are being forced to use mixed sex facilities.
What could improve care around pregnancy and childbirth? See above data problem
All of these are feminist issues and belong on FWR. So what will happen ?
Will we be unable to discuss female only services on a Feminist Board?

So many of the current issues of feminism are impacted by the bastardisation of language driven in part by the trans issue. Surrogacy for example, is very much taking advantage of the shift to separate language of women's rights from their biology. These issues aren't occurring in a bubble, they're all interconnected and it's disingenuous to pretend they can be separated off.

daft idea.

@noblegiraffe

There are people who have feminism hidden because they don’t want to see endless threads about Glinner, JK Rowling or Maya and so on. However they might be interested in a thread about, I don’t know, girls take-up of maths A-level but would miss out on it.

At the moment there is actually no barriers to posting a wide range of topics here on this board now. If people cannot scroll by, that is their own choice. I scroll past many thread titles in AIBU, so why would people not do that now here?

There are always topics here that are covering the wide ranging feminist issues that don't touch at all on anything to do with gender. There are also other boards under the Feminism topic to visit and post on. I pop over and visit but they are not anywhere near as busy though.

I would suggest that any hiving off will probably mean that the main board will potentially lose significant traffic and be a less active board.

Yeah molten. They are interconnected

I don’t even understand what Justine means on the other thread about sex and gender and then ?

I mostly lurk here as I am Australian, not British, but also wanted to put in a vote for this being a terrible idea.