Heads up: MNHQ planning to create a sex/gender topic separate from FWR.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4267223-Any-chance-of-a-review-of-the-FWR-moderation-rules-in-light-of-Maya-Forstaters-success-in-court-please?pg=1

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

As I said on the linked thread, I thought sex/gender was the basis of feminism and therefore a bit odd to split it off.

One of the reasons I now post on FWR is because over the years, I have got sick of trying to have discussions about feminist issues elsewhere, because it always gets derailed by the trans debate.

Discussing male violence? Someone pipes up that transwomen have it worse and accuses you of cis privilege for discussing that men murder two women a week.

Discussing sexual harassment in public places? Someone pipes up and says the discussion is cisnormative and they (a transwoman) have never been harassed in a public place and they're a woman. They explain that the article has artificially inflated the figures of sexual harassment by excluding transwomen and I'm being trans-exclusionary.

This actually happened.

It goes on and on. It is disruption for the sake of it, and so I came back to MN, which at that point, I still regarded as transphobic, because at least no-one would be using accusations of transphobia to derail feminist discussion.

If you want to see phenomenon for yourself, this thread recorded in real time as an FGM campaigner got called transphobic for... not mentioning transwomen. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack

This proposal sounds like manna from heaven for the types I describe.

Like other posters have suggested, separate libfem + GC boards could work I think.

It sounds to me that mumsnet are scared of what we may potentially say, now we cannot be called out for gender criticism!!!!

Thank fuck for that. I hate being told that my feelings on feminism are incorrect because I'm not scared of who uses our toilets.

It's one of the one with her name in the title. Though all of them discuss it, usually after someone posts something about 'women mind you manners, it doesn't mean what you think it means' type comment.

I suggested this as a separate board a few months ago, good to see this being considered smile

Surprised Coconut that you should think this as you have only posted on a few FWR threads and all of them were " trans"threads

@ChiefInspectorParker

If there are people who want an additional board to discuss other issues then I think it's up to them to make the case for one, think up a name for it etc. I don't see why an established, well used and fast moving board should be the one that has to be moved.

Hear hear!

How can one talk about feminism, about issues that affect women and girls (whatever those issues may be) if one can’t say what ‘women’ and ‘girls’ are?

If people don’t like it they can scroll on by, can’t they?

Yes. Leave the feminism board as it is and create another one called "Living as a Woman" or something for the lib fems.

The other feminist sub boards (Activism, Theory, Support) barely get any traffic, do they really need to exist?

Thank fuck for that. I hate being told that my feelings on feminism are incorrect because I'm not scared of who uses our toilets.

Crispychilli when have you been accused of that here on FWR? Have you name changed?

So basically Mumsnet want to discriminate against those who hold gender critical beliefs by saying they can only be discussed in the broom cupboard?

Thank fuck for that. I hate being told that my feelings on feminism are incorrect because I'm not scared of who uses our toilets

More to the point, no one has told you you are wrong as such - you have simply been met with an onslaught of women who disagree with you.

Perhaps it's not discrimination, maybe it's the new way forward in general? No talking about plants on the gardening board, no talk about kids on the parenting board, no talking about vegetables on the vegan board...mix things up a bit?

Remove the central threat to women's rights from the feminism boards? NO

No diagrams in the parking threads?

More to the point, no one has told you you are wrong as such - you have simply been met with an onslaught of women who disagree with you.
Unless this person has name changed they have never posted on the board, so not quite sure where their feelings on feminism have been criticised.

Please don't do this @MNHQ. It would create echo chambers and not promote discussion. It would suggest the gender question is being shuffled to one side and hidden.

This board opened my eyes and is currently doing so for many more. Lots of posts asking for information. People wanting to understand. Without being accused of being a bigot.

Being GC is not bigotry or shameful or illegal and deserves to stay on FWR.

As everyone else has said, this will be a nightmare to moderate because a lot of the time sex and gender discussions are inexorably linked.

It would be much more honest to have a Terf Corner.

All that's going to happen, MNHQ, is that we'll all migrate there and FWR will have tumbleweed blowing through it.

@tilder

Please don't do this *@MNHQ*. It would create echo chambers and not promote discussion. It would suggest the gender question is being shuffled to one side and hidden.

This board opened my eyes and is currently doing so for many more. Lots of posts asking for information. People wanting to understand. Without being accused of being a bigot.

Being GC is not bigotry or shameful or illegal and deserves to stay on FWR.

This is exactly why certain someones want GC discussions to be shuffled to one side. So that no one wanders in and finds these viewpoints reasonable. We have to be hidden away - the same way reddit destroyed its gc boards - so that we can't have any influence.

Not cool, MNHQ. Haven't you noticed the times are changing?

This board opened my eyes and is currently doing so for many more. Lots of posts asking for information. People wanting to understand. Without being accused of being a bigot.

I agree. I was amazed (when I came here from AIBU) that posters were generally welcoming and ready to explain things. Very little snark. Took time out of their day to explain things, post links, suggest reading. To engage in robust discussion yes, but with reasoned facts and viewpoints. Never seen anyone get called a bigot.

You don't know what you don't know until you see it discussed here.

Let me get this right? The majority of users on this site are women and the majority of users of this site are GC and we on FWR should move over.

Ffs. What an awful and discriminatory decision.

ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE MAYA DECISION YESTERDAY.

We are women. And women’s issues should centre in the FWR board. I’m all for adding a new board lib fem for anyone, who disagrees. But why the fuck should we move over under pretence that our sex is not central to how women are treated?

Wtf is @MNHQ thinking marginalising its users and paid up members…. I bloody paid up again this year. God knows why!

I think that this suggestion underestimates how interconnected these issues are.

There is currently a thread on FWR about the Oxfam training which suggests that white women shouldn't seek legal justice following rape.

This is clearly a feminist issue. But the training came out of the LGBT+ group in Oxfam and is routed in queer theory.

One issue cannot be discussed without discussing the other.
These issues are intertwined at a political level in many organizations.

If it has to be done, do it honestly. “Sex-based feminism” and “gender-based feminism”

(Trying to have feminist discourse without referring to sex is like saying you want to improve road safety without referring to cars)

@Bunshaped

This board opened my eyes and is currently doing so for many more. Lots of posts asking for information. People wanting to understand. Without being accused of being a bigot.

I agree. I was amazed (when I came here from AIBU) that posters were generally welcoming and ready to explain things. Very little snark. Took time out of their day to explain things, post links, suggest reading. To engage in robust discussion yes, but with reasoned facts and viewpoints. Never seen anyone get called a bigot.

You don't know what you don't know until you see it discussed here.

Only welcoming and ready to explain things if you agree though. Don't try and question anything or disagree on any points though, you'll soon see it's not the same as you're describing, quite the opposite in fact

As everyone else has said, this will be a nightmare to moderate because a lot of the time sex and gender discussions are inexorably linked

I image there will be a lot of reporting and wanting threads moved between the two boards - then maybe de-railing and then reporting as a thread suddenly becomes about other topic area.

Well I for one, absolutely welcome your contributions Quaggers and I think you have made some excellent posts in AIBU.