Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer and the Labour Party Really Cannot Read the Room

414 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 09/06/2021 17:19

Labour and Self-id

twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1402586773499244549

Rosie Duffield gets the predictable kicking in the comments. Still no public support for her. That's what the Labour leadership think about women's rights and women who have an opinion.

Why any women would vote Labour I really do not know.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Mollyollydolly · 09/06/2021 23:19

I've just banged off an email.. I've sent him loads .. this will be the last.
You lost my vote today having just watched the Pink News video.

"Dear Keir,
If you support self id you’ll never get in power. Have you any idea how many Labour women have been sending Liz Truss thank you cards?

How many are working with Baroness Nicholson and Lord Hunt to pull back this madness and it’s implications for safeguarding in prisons, NHS, schools, the law?

Have you heard of Maya Forstater, Keira Bell, Allison Bailey, do you understand what the argument is about? Its not about hating trans people it’s about women’s rights and safeguarding. Do you know how many women have been driven out of their CLPs by misogynistic men who treat women with contempt (including me)?

Could you never once find it in your heart to support Rosie Duffield and condemn the hate she receives every week on social media?

Have you listened to Simon Fanshawe or LGBAlliance or just the convoluted and dangerous position of Stonewall and Lord Cashman (who I once respected) who’s shown himself to be someone who has no consideration of women at all.

Have you any idea how toxic Pink News are to many lesbians and gay men? The vile rubbish they publish? Over 200 articles vilifying JK Rowling. Can’t believe you used them as your platform on top of everything else.

I voted for you in the leadership election because I thought you had some sense.

Now I’m sending Liz Truss thank you letters.

There are tens of thousands of us and if you don’t think Johnson will weaponise this at the next election you’re dafter than I thought.

Yours in disappointment

DeRigueurMortis · 09/06/2021 23:25

@Mollyollydolly

I've just banged off an email.. I've sent him loads .. this will be the last. You lost my vote today having just watched the Pink News video.

"Dear Keir,
If you support self id you’ll never get in power. Have you any idea how many Labour women have been sending Liz Truss thank you cards?

How many are working with Baroness Nicholson and Lord Hunt to pull back this madness and it’s implications for safeguarding in prisons, NHS, schools, the law?

Have you heard of Maya Forstater, Keira Bell, Allison Bailey, do you understand what the argument is about? Its not about hating trans people it’s about women’s rights and safeguarding. Do you know how many women have been driven out of their CLPs by misogynistic men who treat women with contempt (including me)?

Could you never once find it in your heart to support Rosie Duffield and condemn the hate she receives every week on social media?

Have you listened to Simon Fanshawe or LGBAlliance or just the convoluted and dangerous position of Stonewall and Lord Cashman (who I once respected) who’s shown himself to be someone who has no consideration of women at all.

Have you any idea how toxic Pink News are to many lesbians and gay men? The vile rubbish they publish? Over 200 articles vilifying JK Rowling. Can’t believe you used them as your platform on top of everything else.

I voted for you in the leadership election because I thought you had some sense.

Now I’m sending Liz Truss thank you letters.

There are tens of thousands of us and if you don’t think Johnson will weaponise this at the next election you’re dafter than I thought.

Yours in disappointment

👏👏👏
Throckmorton · 09/06/2021 23:32

Mollyollydolly Bloody well said!!

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/06/2021 23:45

Trouble is @Mollyollydolly, he is unlikely ever to see it. He might if there wre a deluge of such letters though.

Or a petition...?

SmokedDuck · 09/06/2021 23:57

@user1471453601

As a Labour party member, I absolutely do not want them to "read the room". I don't want them to do what is popular, I want them to do what they believe to be right.

In this instance, op, you don't think they are right ( time will tell if you or the Labour party are right).

I have a degree of sympathy for your view, and I can certainly see it's point, but I never ever want another government that is content to only do what is popular, instead of doing what they believe to be right. After all polls have shown time and time again, that the populace would support the reintroduction of the repellent ( to me) death penalty. Being popular and being morally right can be two different things.

I'm not a one issue voter. My vote goes to those who I think will most benefit the whole of society. So far,nothing I've seen or read persuaded me to vote for any other party but Labour.

There are two ways for a party to go.

They can be a niche party representing a very specific interest group or viewpoint, with the aim to get a few MPs in and work on their special issues in policy development, questions to the PM, etc.

Or they can attempt to reflect the interests of larger groups of voters and possibly become the government.

Both of those are valid though it's a bit smug for a niche party to act as if it has some right to form a government when they know damn well they don't even want to represent a broad political consensus.

But Labours problem is bigger because they are no longer even representing their interest group - they are losing members hand over fist. Very soon their leaders may have no mandate to even act as a niche interest party. They then can sit at home and write letters about the right thing to do but expecting to get elected is pretty bleeding entitled.

AntiSocialDistancer · 09/06/2021 23:58

What the fucking fuckity fuck

FUCK

TrainedByCats · 10/06/2021 00:07

I don’t vote for a political party on a single issue, I vote for them based on how I think they will handle many issues, some examples below

  • VAWG - what are they doing to reduce this
  • Prisons, are prisoners kept safe and in dignity with some attempt at rehabilitation
  • safeguarding children
  • STEM education (and teaching biological lies is a concern)
  • discrimination
  • maternity rights
  • health care for women
  • online safety
  • LGB rights

This is not a single issue

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 10/06/2021 00:12

@thecatfromjapan

Honestly, I cannot stress this enough: now, now, now is the moment to join Labour.

Starmer is probably the least TWAW Leader we are likely to get.

I really do worry about the next Leader.

We might as well pay to join labour now while it's not as bad as it's going to be?

What's the point of joining a party that at best isnt going to be in government, at worst will remove any safeguarding policies as soon as possible?

RedToothBrush · 10/06/2021 00:20

MPs are elected to be representives of the people and to act in their best interests.

There are occasions where, this rightly means going against popular opinion in the national interest for the benefit of everyone or to protect as many people as possible from harm particularly if they are a minority group, vulnerable or unrepresented.

If someone can explain to me how self ID falls into this category and on balance reduces harm to as many members of the public as possible I'm all ears.

Instead it harms the interests of women politically and in terms of their representation and ability to point out sex based harms, is full on sexist in perpetuating gender stereotypes, is homophobic by saying that people no longer can be same sex attracted and must be open to heterosexual sex or are bigotted, is full on racist, massively over privileged and ignores the impact on more vulnerable groups in society who have no political voice but have human rights (eg female prisoners) and destroys womens access to sport at all levels and particularly harms elite competition, it also harms the health of women by compromising research and poses a health risk to trans people themselves and interestingly we have had the BMJ publish an article about the need to see sex and not hide it just this week. It also presents safeguarding issues of various kinds to minors (especially perhaps those with autism).

What harms exactly are we reducing in turn? And how many people does this benefit? Is this more or less than those actively harmed by the desire not to have nuance and a blanket no exceptions / no questioning rule.

Remind me again, what is the point in a public consultation if you only want to listen to views you already agree with and remind me again what is the point in having an MP who is actively campaigning and working against your interests and supports a policy which creates more harm than it reduces because of this failure to represent public concerns accurately and fairly?

I'm vehemently against populist government but if you are going to go against popular opinion, you damn well best have a good explanation and be prepared to defend your position with proper debate (which is at the heart of liberal democracy). People will generally come around to an idea if it has merit overall.

If you fail to do this, you cease to be a politician who is going to pay the price at the ballot box. Quite right because you have forgotten the central pillars and principles of being an MP in the UK's liberal democracy.

Its not necessarily about agreeing but it certainly is about understanding the issues fully and acknowledging potential problems and conflicts in order to be fair and just to all and to be able to legitimately argue you are doing the very best overall for your constituents.

Labour fundamentally have managed to get themselves into a shit creek scenario on this one with Starmer continuing to paddle upstream blithely unaware that the crocodiles are circling and about to eat his paddle and then him fairly soon.

RedToothBrush · 10/06/2021 00:23

Btw i think the Greens will start to rise in prominence in the uk and Labour will be even more marginalised in the next decade. They haven't got lost off piste. They somehow ended up using sat nav poorly and are in the wrong bloody mountain range.

StarryGazeyEyes · 10/06/2021 00:51

I'm still a party member and contacted Starmer tonight in much the same style as Mollyollydolly. I've nearly left so many times over the last few years, not least because my CLP refuse to engage with the issue, but I still feel have more of a voice within the party than outside it. That's not a position that will go on indefinitely though if they continue to ignore the voices of women members with legitimate concerns.

ChoosandChipsandSealingWax · 10/06/2021 00:54

I did. I wasted all of a beautiful sunny weekend at a computer to vote. It was heartbreaking 💔

ChoosandChipsandSealingWax · 10/06/2021 00:59

Gah. That was me trying to reply/quote this - I think the reason it didn’t work is it was already quoting a post:

From @MidClrgs:

How many people decide they won't vote anymore because of their stance on women, yet won't get their arse into gear, join the party and vote internally for the party line?

Take the Green Party, from what I've heard in their spring conference they had a motion for twaw (or not). 500 people voted out of 25000 members. The vote was for twaw by 80 votes. This could have been stopped if women put their money (£3 per month) to join the party to vote against this.

Same with the Labour Party. Honestly. Sitting on a high horse saying you could never vote for them anymore is frankly apathetic. Join, vote, turn internal policies around. Join every damn Party to do the same if you really care about women's rights.

PearPickingPorky · 10/06/2021 05:52

@FOJN

We know there is an issue with the current situation - the medical route was painful, long and arduous.

I don't understand your point. If you intend to have SRS it will be long, painful and arduous no matter how simply the paperwork becomes.

And if they have no intention of having SRS then what does trans even mean?
OldTurtleNewShell · 10/06/2021 06:40

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

I'm not saying, 'Relax. It'll all be fine.' I wouldn't say that. I'm saying that Starmer is miles from endorsing unlimited self-id in that clip.

If he was miles away from endorsing self id, he wouldn't mention it. He didn't need to talk about it at all.

Why should anyone believe that he doesn't support self id when he went out of his way to talk about it?

This. He didn't need to mention it at all. There was no reason for him to bring it up and if he understood anything close to the issues or the depth of feeling around it, he wouldn't have touched it with a bargepole. The fact that he brought it up at all means he either doesn't understand the problem or he does and he doesn't care. Either way, he's revealed himself to lack of support for women's rights.
OldTurtleNewShell · 10/06/2021 06:46

Same with the Labour Party. Honestly. Sitting on a high horse saying you could never vote for them anymore is frankly apathetic. Join, vote, turn internal policies around. Join every damn Party to do the same if you really care about women's rights.

I do agree with this. For me, I'm struggling financially and tbh those membership dues were really starting to sting. Giving away much needed money every month to a party who seemed to actively fighting against women's rights was just too much.
My local CLP are awful too. I've never seen so much squabbling. It felt like an expensive and exhausting battle without much hope of getting anywhere.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 10/06/2021 06:53

Same with the Labour Party. Honestly. Sitting on a high horse saying you could never vote for them anymore is frankly apathetic. Join, vote, turn internal policies around. Join every damn Party to do the same if you really care about women's rights.

It's one way to do it. But it's proving difficult and women are faced with abuse working within these hostile groups. And does it achieve results?

What seems to be more successful and results in fewer personal attacks is working with sympathetic members of the HoL.

It can't have escaped anyone attention that three or four member of the HoL have put pressure on the government and really made a difference.

It maybe more beneficial for lots of women to avoid male centric party politics completely.

FOJN · 10/06/2021 06:56

There are no assurances the Labour Party could offer me about protection for single sex spaces which would persuade me to vote for them.

Years ago I celebrated with a trans friend when they received their GRC. I didn't imagine for a second we'd end up debating what a woman was but here we are so not only do I oppose self ID I think we should repeal the GRA. I have great sympathy for trans people with gender dysphoria but I have come to understand that there is always a price for women when we're kind. It is not my job to validate anyone and I think it's incredibly unhealthy to use an act of parliament to place that burden on people.

If populism is about listening to concerns which affect 51% of the population then I can get behind that, if you feel that is morally or ethically questionable then I don't know how to explain representative democracy to you.

Helmetbymidnight · 10/06/2021 07:10

Same with the Labour Party. Honestly. Sitting on a high horse saying you could never vote for them anymore is frankly apathetic. Join, vote, turn internal policies around. Join every damn Party to do the same if you really care about women's rights.

I joined some time ago because I felt like this.

Today I feel gutted.

I thought Keir was 'clever'. I didn't mind that he avoided the issue because I thought he was biding his time, that he was letting it sort itself out - which it will do - in society and in courts.

But no. This changes everything for me. And yes, emboldens all the misogynists in the Labour party - and believe me, they don't need emboldening.

I'm writing my email now - and then thinking about what to do next. Sad

highame · 10/06/2021 07:14

In the 60's early 70's young bearded men ran the debate on the left and it looks as though times haven't changed.

There are a few significant things coming together, VAWG, conflict of rights, sexual harassment of girls in schools OFSTED, DV, effects of lockdown on women. If this doesn't give us a window to make major changes, then when will the time be right.

I used to say I'd go back to Labour when they supported women's rights, but my CLP hasn't changed since the 60's either (it had a gap where it moved, but men have hunkered down again). Now I'm saying 'no thanks' because I've been in this for 50 years and nowts changed, in fact for young women now, it's worse

bellinisurge · 10/06/2021 07:19

I'm in my fifties. Every single person older than me (sorry, kids, we vote too) that I have spoken to about this starts off with the whole "be kind and tolerant " stuff. And then when I explain how this gives license to bad actors they say "oh" and then "well, obviously not that". And then when I explain about "birthing people " and "chest feeding " in order to be kind and tolerant they say "oh" " well that's not ok".

I live in red wall suburb of Manchester. Plenty of kind tolerant open minded people here. But put their daughters, granddaughters and wives/girlfriends/sisters/mothers/friends at risk and it's going to be a No.

Labour has lost its mind. Don't give people a reason to stick to the Tories.

Tanith · 10/06/2021 07:20

If you’re worried that emails aren’t getting through, then write, addressed directly to him personally.

Lordamighty · 10/06/2021 07:39

Don’t go getting your hopes up over Andy Burnham, he is a fully paid up member of the TWAW club.

Chersfrozenface · 10/06/2021 07:49

@Tanith

If you’re worried that emails aren’t getting through, then write, addressed directly to him personally.
You think he opens his own letters?
Tanith · 10/06/2021 07:51

Yes, I think he will open his own letters if they are addressed in a particular way.

They will also be a physical presence, rather than disappearing at the touch of a button.