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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

R4 now Tuesday 7.51 am

541 replies

somethinginoffensive · 08/06/2021 07:52

Discussing Stonewall.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Mollyollydolly · 08/06/2021 11:40

The only thing that would have made that perfect was if LGB Alliance had been on.

GlencoraP · 08/06/2021 11:41

The weird thing was that the conversation with Simon Fanshawe was pretty tame in tone and then Justin turned to BC and it was like a Rottweiler let of a lead , he didn’t even wait to be asked a question he just exploded with a stream of irrelevant nonsense . I thought Justin Webb did a good job and I rarely listen to the Today programme now , dh put it on because he got up early to actually go into the office .

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 08/06/2021 11:41

"Self ID is simply about paperwork" BC.

Not for the women in Edinburgh who need access to a refuge, mate. Let's find out what women, who are vulnerable, think? Let's ask them whether self ID is paperwork or the consequences of self ID is a gross invasion of women's safety, privacy and dignity.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/06/2021 11:44

That is what I was thinking. The reason there were no trans voices is because he was presuming to take their place.

To be fair, I expect any SW-friendly trans person would be pursuing #nodebate in line with SW and I doubt he'd have countenanced putting forward somebody not known to be SW-approved.

GlencoraP · 08/06/2021 11:45

That comment really got me , if it’s just paperwork why is he making such a fuss. It’s a typical male put down . Women are; ‘making a fuss about nothing’ or they ‘don’t understand’ . I understand perfectly well BC and it’s not about paperwork Angry

viques · 08/06/2021 11:47

@BlackeyedSusan

Safeguarding,and sport mentioned
SF was very clear on the sports issue. You are my new crush SF.
SchadenfreudePersonified · 08/06/2021 11:48

Shame the BBC didn't pull him up on the lies about single sex spaces. I also want interviews to start talking about the sex by deception issue

I think Ranty Ben had gibbered away for so long that they just didn't have the time.

The idiot even started with a long propaganda statement when it was obvious that there were time constraints.

They may not have had much time, but there was plenty of rope, and they handed it to Ben . . .

merrymouse · 08/06/2021 11:48

"Self ID is simply about paperwork"

If it’s just paperwork what is the point?

Erikrie · 08/06/2021 11:49

to be fair, I would probably interview worse

Well tbh, it's always going to be harder if someone is coming from a position of bad faith and no logic. All that's left is to call people names and try to derail the interview. Whereas obviously from the position of safeguards for women and children, it's far easier. There are proven facts and logic with this position. The activist position has neither. 🤷

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 08/06/2021 11:54

The sex by deception is a massive red flag. Massive. I'm not even sure you could call it a flag, it is an entire bolt of red fabric flapping off the top of a skyscraper.

I have had this conversation with some of my colleagues - we are HCPs. According to them, post op transwomen should not have to disclose their gender status because that is their private medical business and nobody's business. "but if their sexual partner is male and heterosexual and believes this is sex with a female person then the new sexual partner is not engaging in the heterosexual activity they consented to. That is a crime, his sexuality deserves the same respect as anyone else's" This got me called a transphobe and it all got a bit tricky at work for a while.

There is a case of a young female person who presented as male (but wasn't trans, I'm not sure of all the details) who was convicted of sex by deception after using adult toys on their young, female partner who believed she was in a heterosexual relationship. It was all very odd, and murky.

Sex by deception is a massive problem for the people who have the surgery. Even after that level of change they are still not of the opposite sex, it must be very confronting.

Datun · 08/06/2021 11:58

It's frustrating that the issues always seem to get skirted around, too.

It's quite true that Stonewall were campaigning to remove the single six exceptions. But if Cohen says that's not the case, then the question should be so do you agree with single sex exceptions in that case? And if he says it depends, then let's hear under what circumstances he thinks they are acceptable.

Let's get to the nitty-gritty. Under what what conditions does he think that women's consent and boundaries need to be respected, if any.

Because, as we've seen on here, when women just say no, you have two options. You either agree, or you disagree.

Let's hear it.

purpleboy · 08/06/2021 12:06

[quote nauticant]Looking at twitter the response seems to be split 3 ways, "debate, yay!", "woke stuff, yawn!", and "I can't believe how transphobic this is, Ben is a hero". For an example of the last of those:

twitter.com/SlauHaus/status/1402160037309693957[/quote]
I had family who died at Hillsborough and family who survived but wished they didn't. I'm really fucking angry that dick is comparing the 2 things. If anyone is on Twitter can you please go and tell them how offensive this is to those who died and the survivorsSad

DentonsFringeArnottsWaistcoat · 08/06/2021 12:07

Well, NK did compare gc views to anti-semitic views. In black and white
Also, Stonewall have/had as their agenda to remove rights to single sex spaces. In black and white

Yes, at that point it was a bit like a Python sketch:
‘NK likened GC views to anti-Semitic views’
‘No she didn’t’
‘Stonewall want to remove exemptions in the EA, like access to single sex spaces’
‘No they don’t’
‘This isn’t a debate this is just contradiction!’
‘No it isn’t.......’

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/06/2021 12:07

There is a case of a young female person who presented as male (but wasn't trans, I'm not sure of all the details) who was convicted of sex by deception after using adult toys on their young, female partner who believed she was in a heterosexual relationship. It was all very odd, and murky.

I believe there were several such cases. Here is a (slightly fawning) review of a book by Alex Sharpe, a TRA law professor, about this subject. I've bolded the bit which explains Sharpe's view in simple terms.

Against this background Sharpe’s analysis, in which queer and gender non-conforming identities are acknowledged and centered, provides a much-needed counterpoint. By examining McNally through the lens of queer theory, Sharpe is able to shift the perspective on this and other such cases, making explicit the cultural and ideological assumptions underwriting the decisions reached. Her position is that the conceptual coherence of gender identity fraud relies on the foundational premise that the categories of sex and gender are ontological truths which may be uncovered and compared to a defendant’s self-representation; if Justine McNally’s gender presentation is conceived not as pretense but as a genuine expression of male identity,then there is no deception for which to answer. In framing McNally’s self-representation as a deception, therefore, the court both assumes and reinforces “the naturalness and stability of the categories of sex, gender and heterosexuality” (7). To exist outside of such categorisation becomes an inherently deceptive act, creating a situation in which “fixed identities are legally required”:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11572-020-09540-x

endofthelinefinally · 08/06/2021 12:11

@Mollyollydolly

The only thing that would have made that perfect was if LGB Alliance had been on.
Simon Fanshawe.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/06/2021 12:16

I had family who died at Hillsborough and family who survived but wished they didn't. I'm really fucking angry that dick is comparing the 2 things. If anyone is on Twitter can you please go and tell them how offensive this is to those who died and the survivors

I met the parents of one of the young men who died on a train. They were travelling everyday to attend the Coroner's Inquest at that point. It's decades on and I've never forgotten the grief that pervaded every part of them and their horror at their boy's last few minutes. It was all the more aggravated by the rapid spinning of lies in the media about the fans and the cause of the crush.

It's abhorrent for people to appropriate that shameful episode that has left such a deep wound for cities and families.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 08/06/2021 12:17

Alex Sharpe is a bit of a worry Erish.

It has struck me that many people with professorships in the field of gender studies appear to be, well, a bit lacking in intellectual rigour.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 08/06/2021 12:19

OMFG!

I’m listening to it now and it is an absolute car crash. Well, BC’s part in it anyway.

‘Misinformation spread by a homophobic and transphobic media’.
Is he lying? Or is he, ahem, uninformed?

Oh, now we have top trumps!

Great ending - ‘Stonewall could have come on, but didn’t’.

purpleboy · 08/06/2021 12:24

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I had family who died at Hillsborough and family who survived but wished they didn't. I'm really fucking angry that dick is comparing the 2 things. If anyone is on Twitter can you please go and tell them how offensive this is to those who died and the survivors

I met the parents of one of the young men who died on a train. They were travelling everyday to attend the Coroner's Inquest at that point. It's decades on and I've never forgotten the grief that pervaded every part of them and their horror at their boy's last few minutes. It was all the more aggravated by the rapid spinning of lies in the media about the fans and the cause of the crush.

It's abhorrent for people to appropriate that shameful episode that has left such a deep wound for cities and families.

It's shameful what they were put through. I don't believe anyone has fully come to terms with it, 32 years later, at least not the ones I speak too.
Datun · 08/06/2021 12:27

[quote FindTheTruth]Article
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9663325/You-dont-know-BBC-Radio-4-host-Justin-Webb-clash-Pink-News-CEO.html

The interview segment

[/quote] Kinell, that was quick.

And they got in the big fat lie.

deleteasappropriate · 08/06/2021 12:29

Chrysanthemum5 thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I suppose I was coming from the 'trans range' which isn't understood by the public, where if we're talking transsexual it's why are women being mean to Hayley from Corrie.

deleteasappropriate · 08/06/2021 12:30

@Chrysanthemum5 thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I suppose I was coming from the 'trans range' which isn't understood by the public, where if we're talking transsexual it's why are women being mean to Hayley from Corrie.

BoreOfWhabylon · 08/06/2021 12:32

@Shedbuilder

Justin Webb's been one of the only Today presenters who's openly GC, and he's been quietly pressing our case for more than a year now. I seem to recall him mentioning at some point that he'd seen what was happening in the US when he was based over there — so he was a bit ahead of the game. Kudos to him. He and Emily Maitlis have been pushing from within a captured organisation and deserve acknowledgement.
Just listened and reading the thread now. I agree with this, Justin's always understood the issues and been on the side of common sense. He was fabulous on this, as was Simon. I just wish Simon had time to make it clear about gender v sex, because I think a lot of people who haven't been following the issue don't appreciate the difference.

Will read the rest of the thread now Smile

littlebillie · 08/06/2021 12:33

Justin Webb voice of reason and sense!!