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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article

733 replies

RedthroatedCaracara · 06/06/2021 11:20

because all females need to be aware of this

And there's no need to have an attack of the vapours because it's a Daily Mail link. For all their multitude of shortcomings, the Mail at least have the guts to publish articles that stand up for women and girls.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 11:04

I have.

No, you haven't, or at least you haven't read particularly widely, as there have been many such threads about this issue in the last few years. So maybe you could take a look.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 11:05

And they don't all concern this one Welsh policy document.

Tanith · 07/06/2021 11:05

“
And LLL International updated their Facebook page (very easy to do) 17hrs ago (very recently) and said ‘mother’. “

Excellent! We always hoped the rollback would be swift once the tide began to turn. Looks like it really is changing in earnest now.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 11:06

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I have.

No, you haven't, or at least you haven't read particularly widely, as there have been many such threads about this issue in the last few years. So maybe you could take a look.

Do you want to point me in the right direction? Everything I’ve been told to google or to look up (HoL, Welsh government, LLL, Breastfeeding Network, NHS, Facebook...) I have, and have provided screenshots. Where exactly should I look that I haven’t already?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 11:12

There have been lots of media articles, Pumper, not just this one, or you could try an advanced search or Google? It will take you just as long to do it as it does me. Or maybe someone else here will kindly post you some links.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 11:22

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There have been lots of media articles, Pumper, not just this one, or you could try an advanced search or Google? It will take you just as long to do it as it does me. Or maybe someone else here will kindly post you some links.
I’ve already read loads of media articles - I also read the guardian one posted several times on this thread. If you’ve got some insight into how widespread this problem is, I’d love to read it.
EndoplasmicReticulum · 07/06/2021 11:25

I just did a quick advanced search on here and found 3.

Black birthing people
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3964026-Black-birthing-people

Birthing people
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4118246-birthing-people

SANDS
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4059473-sands-sorry-if-upsetting

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 11:29

[quote EndoplasmicReticulum]I just did a quick advanced search on here and found 3.

Black birthing people
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3964026-Black-birthing-people

Birthing people
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4118246-birthing-people

SANDS
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4059473-sands-sorry-if-upsetting[/quote]
There isn’t a link to the Instagram post on the first one, so I can’t see that evidence.

The second one is one post, and the OP later posted a screenshot of their policy which does indeed say ‘mother’

The third one is one tweet, but I’ll head over to the sands website now and check out their policy.

Would you class these examples as your evidence that it’s ‘widespread’?

DaisiesandButtercups · 07/06/2021 11:29

lllusa.org/about-us/

Try this one, USA got there first.

Others will follow.

EndoplasmicReticulum · 07/06/2021 11:32

British medical association guide

www.northstaffslmc.co.uk/website/LMC001/files/BMA-guide-to-effective-communication-2016.pdf

bottom of page 11

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 11:34

@EndoplasmicReticulum

That’s a Guide to Inclusive Language, that’s what the document is called. Would we call it widespread on the back of this document?
EndoplasmicReticulum · 07/06/2021 11:35

Pumper I just thought I'd get you started.

Not wasting any more time throwing fish.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 11:36

@DaisiesandButtercups

lllusa.org/about-us/

Try this one, USA got there first.

Others will follow.

Fair enough. I’ll add LLL USA specifically to the Welsh HR Policy document. So now we’ve two.
Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 11:37

@EndoplasmicReticulum

Pumper I just thought I'd get you started.

Not wasting any more time throwing fish.

By linking three mumsnet posts and a document specifically about Inclusive language?

Honestly, for a problem as widespread as this, it sure is difficult to find any evidence of it.

Tanith · 07/06/2021 11:39

It’s a shame this thread dumped in FWR before the evidence of organisations rolling back could be twisted, isn’t it?

Of course, SANDS apologised at the time and changed the wording back to Mothers after some very distressed bereaved mothers contacted them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 11:43

That’s a Guide to Inclusive Language, that’s what the document is called. Would we call it widespread on the back of this document?

I don't know, would "we"?

Datun · 07/06/2021 11:48

Pumper

A few months ago there was an amendment going through Parliament regarding the maternity bill. I can't remember the precise details, but it was something along the lines that provisions had to be made specifically for MPs, which it hadn't done for some reason.

The debate, according to Hansard, mentioned women or mother something like 300 times.

The amendment, when written up, didn't mention mother or woman once. It had been eliminated.

The bill was going through, and it was only stopped by the House of Lords, who flagged it. (I think it might have been due to Baroness Nicholson who is very aware).

They had to take a vote, but managed to reinstate the word mother (although not woman).

This is an amendment that was only stopped at the 11th hour, from completely erasing the word mother in a bill about maternity rights.

This isn't about ordinary, everyday people being aware they mustn't use certain words, or else. This is about a concerted effort to decouple women from anything to do with their biology. So that the word woman, or in this case mother, is not dependent upon it.

'De-gendering' terms is a well documented political policy, spearheaded by groups like Stonewall.

The fact that the campaign has run into a brick wall is because of the efforts of women like those on this thread.

I can't help thinking that if they hadn't relentlessly and painfully confronted the issue, many women, maybe even you, would be saying why didn't you say something? Instead of complaining that we are saying something.

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 11:51

@Ereshkigalangcleg

That’s a Guide to Inclusive Language, that’s what the document is called. Would we call it widespread on the back of this document?

I don't know, would "we"?

Would you?
Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 11:52

@Datun

Pumper

A few months ago there was an amendment going through Parliament regarding the maternity bill. I can't remember the precise details, but it was something along the lines that provisions had to be made specifically for MPs, which it hadn't done for some reason.

The debate, according to Hansard, mentioned women or mother something like 300 times.

The amendment, when written up, didn't mention mother or woman once. It had been eliminated.

The bill was going through, and it was only stopped by the House of Lords, who flagged it. (I think it might have been due to Baroness Nicholson who is very aware).

They had to take a vote, but managed to reinstate the word mother (although not woman).

This is an amendment that was only stopped at the 11th hour, from completely erasing the word mother in a bill about maternity rights.

This isn't about ordinary, everyday people being aware they mustn't use certain words, or else. This is about a concerted effort to decouple women from anything to do with their biology. So that the word woman, or in this case mother, is not dependent upon it.

'De-gendering' terms is a well documented political policy, spearheaded by groups like Stonewall.

The fact that the campaign has run into a brick wall is because of the efforts of women like those on this thread.

I can't help thinking that if they hadn't relentlessly and painfully confronted the issue, many women, maybe even you, would be saying why didn't you say something? Instead of complaining that we are saying something.

This has already been discussed. So mother is still being used in the maternity bill?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 11:59

Would you?

If I were genuinely interested in the truth of the matter I probably wouldn't consider one link as the be all and end all of the issue either way, and would do my own research rather than asking for people to spoon feed me, but maybe that's just me and my crazy ways.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/06/2021 12:03

'De-gendering' terms is a well documented political policy, spearheaded by groups like Stonewall.

The fact that the campaign has run into a brick wall is because of the efforts of women like those on this thread.

This.

Datun · 07/06/2021 12:03

This has already been discussed. So mother is still being used in the maternity bill?

Not "is still". It was about to be erased. Women stopped it. The House of Lords stopped it but only by voting on the back of relentless lobbying by feminists.

Imagine how far something had to get it before a handful of people in the House of Lords stopped it.

Your issue appears to be well how widespread is this?

The answer is, that everywhere it has been documented, women have tried to stop it. Some places they have been successful, some places they haven't. But you're not asking the right question. It's not how widespread is it?

It's why is it happening at all?

You're wanting to know how often women are having to playing whack a mole, instead of asking why they're forced to play the game at all.

Why do you think it's happening?

Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 12:03

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Would you?

If I were genuinely interested in the truth of the matter I probably wouldn't consider one link as the be all and end all of the issue either way, and would do my own research rather than asking for people to spoon feed me, but maybe that's just me and my crazy ways.

I think the only person doing the spoon feeding on this thread is me - my phone is now full of screenshots where I’ve highlighted evidence that ‘mother’ is still being used everywhere. Absolutely nobody is giving me the same consideration, while still arguing it’s ‘widespread’.
Pumperthepumper · 07/06/2021 12:05

@Datun

This has already been discussed. So mother is still being used in the maternity bill?

Not "is still". It was about to be erased. Women stopped it. The House of Lords stopped it but only by voting on the back of relentless lobbying by feminists.

Imagine how far something had to get it before a handful of people in the House of Lords stopped it.

Your issue appears to be well how widespread is this?

The answer is, that everywhere it has been documented, women have tried to stop it. Some places they have been successful, some places they haven't. But you're not asking the right question. It's not how widespread is it?

It's why is it happening at all?

You're wanting to know how often women are having to playing whack a mole, instead of asking why they're forced to play the game at all.

Why do you think it's happening?

I don’t think it is happening though. I haven’t seen any evidence that ‘mother’ is being erased, outside of a few think-pieces and buzzword-guides. Its talked about more on mumsnet as a what-if than anywhere it has real-life consequences.
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