If you avoid the feminist section then at least read this article

[RedthroatedCaracara]

because all females need to be aware of this

And there's no need to have an attack of the vapours because it's a Daily Mail link. For all their multitude of shortcomings, the Mail at least have the guts to publish articles that stand up for women and girls.

@lifeturnsonadime

So there is the difference. I believe that transwomen are a subset of men. They are gender non conforming men.

It is not possible to change sex.

If you believe that the word woman includes men who identify as women then you are not concerned about the change in the meaning of the word woman and the implications it might have on the way we describe ourselves as a sex class.

You obviously also believe that transmen are a subset of men and think that their need to be validated is adequate to change the language we use around giving birth and motherhood. Despite the fact that it is their sexed bodies that give birth not their gender identity.

At least I now understand your beliefs Pumper. I don't agree with you but thank you for explaining the root of our differences in opinion.

If you believe that the word woman includes men who identify as women then you are not concerned about the change in the meaning of the word woman and the implications it might have on the way we describe ourselves as a sex class.

Yes, I’d say that’s fair. I don’t think we should spend loads of time wondering about what might happen if language is eradicated, and I can’t see any evidence that’s it’s happening.

And thank you for the debate. Agree to disagree and all that.

@RedDogsBeg

Well, why is it so important? You’re still working under this idea that people aren’t using words like ‘girl’ and ‘women’ but they are. So with that in mind, why is this particular issue (‘pregnant employees’ over ‘mothers’) such a big deal?

The Welsh Policy on Maternity removed all references to the word mother or pregnant women, but the word father got a mention though, surprise, surprise no attempt to erase men and their role. The policy refers to chestfeeding not breastfeeding, but no it's not happening language is not being changed, nothing to see here move on.

Maternity - comes from the Latin root mater which means mother. Maternity Leave and Policies are for mothers the clue is in the title.

Can you link it? I read it earlier but I didn’t see any mention of chest feeding, happy to be proved wrong. Although again, I’m not sure why it matters.

@RedDogsBeg it’s ok, I’ve been back on and it says Breastfeeding on the very first page::

gov.wales/maternity-services-strategy-2019-2024

@RedDogsBeg it also says mothers and women, am I on the wrong document?

Welsh Government HR Policies and Procedures. The word mother or woman is not mentioned once but father is, this is a policy about maternity.

Their 'New and Expectant Mothers Policy' has been renamed 'Policy for Pregnant or Nursing Employees' and there are specific references within it to chestfeeding.

Do you mean this policy? I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that, while that nasty inclusive language is used, so is the word 'breastfeeding' and indeed 'mother'. The reference to 'chestfeeding' is a small footnote, which explains that some trans or non-binary individuals may prefer the term.

I really can't see anything to panic about here.

@RedDogsBeg

Welsh Government HR Policies and Procedures. The word mother or woman is not mentioned once but father is, this is a policy about maternity.

Their 'New and Expectant Mothers Policy' has been renamed 'Policy for Pregnant or Nursing Employees' and there are specific references within it to chestfeeding.

Is it this one?

gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2021-03/atisn14841doc1.pdf

No, it is the one updated on the 29th April 2021.

Pumper - do prisons concern you at all? Most police forces treat suspects by their gender identity not biological sex. This gives a huge incentive for predatory sex offenders to declare themselves as women and then be housed in women’s prison.

This magical act of self-declaration does not change their body, their genitals - they are taller and stronger than women. And still have the same predatory sex drive.

I’d rather share a prison cell with Rose West than Karen White. I could fight Rose off, but not ‘Karen’.

@RedDogsBeg

No, it is the one updated on the 29th April 2021.

Can you link to it?

@WeeSisters

Pumper - do prisons concern you at all? Most police forces treat suspects by their gender identity not biological sex. This gives a huge incentive for predatory sex offenders to declare themselves as women and then be housed in women’s prison.

This magical act of self-declaration does not change their body, their genitals - they are taller and stronger than women. And still have the same predatory sex drive.

I’d rather share a prison cell with Rose West than Karen White. I could fight Rose off, but not ‘Karen’.

Prisons do concern me, yes. I don’t think transwomen should be in female prisons.

I accept you don't care and find it all very happy-clappy inclusive Pumper, however, I find it offensive and ridiculous that a document about Maternity Policy fails to mention women or mothers once but does manage to sneak father in there. Only one sex class can become pregnant, only one sex class gives birth, that sex class is female aka women this policy is supposedly for them but daren't speak their name.

Sorry I am crap at linking, google maternity and adoption leave policy wales and it should come up.

@WeeSisters

Pumper - do prisons concern you at all? Most police forces treat suspects by their gender identity not biological sex. This gives a huge incentive for predatory sex offenders to declare themselves as women and then be housed in women’s prison.

This magical act of self-declaration does not change their body, their genitals - they are taller and stronger than women. And still have the same predatory sex drive.

I’d rather share a prison cell with Rose West than Karen White. I could fight Rose off, but not ‘Karen’.

This is a very good point, of course, privileged women don't tend to end up in prison so it probably doesn't worry them too much.

Also consider the impact on crime stats, suddenly there is a massive increase in the number of 'women' who are committing sexual assault.

Regarding Employment if employers look at a 'gender' pay gap rather than a sex one then the margins will be slimmer as transwomen will have benefits from the privilege of their sex in terms of their salary and they are not at risk of needing maternity leave and career breaks as the kind of women who can give birth! Who does that benefit I wonder?

I'm really confused RedDog, I'm desperately trying to find this document you speak of, but all the ones I'm finding from the Welsh Gov include the word 'mother'. Could you please link to the one you're talking about?

@RedDogsBeg

I accept you don't care and find it all very happy-clappy inclusive Pumper, however, I find it offensive and ridiculous that a document about Maternity Policy fails to mention women or mothers once but does manage to sneak father in there. Only one sex class can become pregnant, only one sex class gives birth, that sex class is female aka women this policy is supposedly for them but daren't speak their name.

I can’t find the document you’re talking about and I’ve linked several from the welsh government where they talk about mothers, women and breastfeeding. I’ve seen no indication of chest feeding so if you can’t link it, I’m going to have to leave it there.

This is a very good point, of course, privileged women don't tend to end up in prison so it probably doesn't worry them too much.

I don’t understand the point you’re making here - privileged women do end up in prison but regardless, I don’t see why that means they shouldn’t care who they share a cell with.

Also consider the impact on crime stats, suddenly there is a massive increase in the number of 'women' who are committing sexual assault.

Yes, absolutely. An important point -sexual assault in particular. Although again, I’m not sure what difference it makes in reality, don’t the ONS refuse to group by profiling of the perpetrators?

Regarding Employment if employers look at a 'gender' pay gap rather than a sex one then the margins will be slimmer as transwomen will have benefits from the privilege of their sex in terms of their salary and they are not at risk of needing maternity leave and career breaks as the kind of women who can give birth! Who does that benefit I wonder?

That’s irrelevant too though, if you think the pay gap exists because of maternity leave. Loads of women don’t have children and still suffer from the GPG.

and that document you linked Pumper states it has helpfully removed the term breastfeeding and replaced it with 'nursing'. Babies who are breast fed are breast fed not chest fed, the term nursing employees is reminiscent of wet nurses.

How long before this language is rolled out beyond policies for employees of the Welsh Government and into other institutions, companies and services?

@RedDogsBeg

and that document you linked Pumper states it has helpfully removed the term breastfeeding and replaced it with 'nursing'. Babies who are breast fed are breast fed not chest fed, the term nursing employees is reminiscent of wet nurses.

How long before this language is rolled out beyond policies for employees of the Welsh Government and into other institutions, companies and services?

I can’t find the 2021 policy you’re referring to anywhere. Assuming it does exist, have you perhaps misunderstood why they’re using the language they are? The only NHS policy I can find which refers to “pregnant employees” is where they’re making it clear that the policy only applies to pregnant staff with NHS employment contracts, not volunteers, bank staff or subcontractors, which “pregnant women” or “pregnant mothers” doesn’t adequately do. The same policy does also use sex-based language such as “maternity”, “paternity”, “mother” and father” throughout, and where it uses neutral language, it’s because it is also referring to staff who become parents through adoption and surrogacy, which doesn’t presume the sex of the parents.

That’s irrelevant too though, if you think the pay gap exists because of maternity leave. Loads of women don’t have children and still suffer from the GPG.

If you believe that maternity leave and career gaps for child care do not contribute to the sex pay gap then you have your head in the sand. There are other sex based reasons for the pay gap but gaps in employment are a significant issue for mothers.

Regarding sexual assault if the sex of the perpetrator is not known or the fact that it is male violence is watered down then how can organisations organise to try to combat male violence? If it can't be named it can't be addressed.

I said that privileged women don't tend to end up in prison, I didn't say that privileged women never end up in prison. I stand by the rest of the point that if this was something that affected privileged women they would be up in arms about it. As it doesn't it's easy to ignore the impact in favour of trans ideology.

@RedDogsBeg

and that document you linked Pumper states it has helpfully removed the term breastfeeding and replaced it with 'nursing'. Babies who are breast fed are breast fed not chest fed, the term nursing employees is reminiscent of wet nurses.

How long before this language is rolled out beyond policies for employees of the Welsh Government and into other institutions, companies and services?

Where? Which page? And also, why does it matter ?

I found the Welsh maternity policy document. My phone doesn't like linking pdf docs but if you go to Google and type in:

'Welsh maternity policy 29 April' it came up for me as the first result. It's from 2019.

It mentions 'father/partner' but I could not see the word 'mother' or 'woman' mentioned once. (I admit to skim reading.)

Sorry I can't provide a direct link but perhaps someone with a more helpful phone can?

@lifeturnsonadime

That’s irrelevant too though, if you think the pay gap exists because of maternity leave. Loads of women don’t have children and still suffer from the GPG.

If you believe that maternity leave and career gaps for child care do not contribute to the sex pay gap then you have your head in the sand. There are other sex based reasons for the pay gap but gaps in employment are a significant issue for mothers.

Regarding sexual assault if the sex of the perpetrator is not known or the fact that it is male violence is watered down then how can organisations organise to try to combat male violence? If it can't be named it can't be addressed.

I said that privileged women don't tend to end up in prison, I didn't say that privileged women never end up in prison. I stand by the rest of the point that if this was something that affected privileged women they would be up in arms about it. As it doesn't it's easy to ignore the impact in favour of trans ideology.

So we agree that mat leave isn’t the sole reason for the pay gap, so what does it matter if there are a few trans women boosting the numbers?

Why can’t it be named? Why can’t it be male violence if it’s committed by a trans woman?

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree that privileged women have no skin in the game wrt prisons. It’s not true.

Even with the risk profiling of offenders,the MoJ policy is that high-risk transwomen should socialise with other women and that prison authorities should work to encourage good relations between them and natal women.

Half of ‘trans’ prisoners are sex offenders.

I am not sure what the authorities are thinking of when they want to encourage sex offenders to socialise with women. It is equivalent to letting foxes in with chickens as ‘inclusion’ triumphs over safeguarding.

The Guardian article is much better IMO.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech

Extract: Through its Diversity Champions scheme, in which 850 organisations, including many public bodies, pay it to accredit their diversity policies, Stonewall has the power to frighten gender-critical women into silence for fear of being wrongly accused of hate speech. Despite its role advising organisations on equalities law, it misrepresents it, stating that trans people have the right to access single-sex spaces in line with their chosen gender (there are in fact important exclusions). The University of Essex replicated this error in its policy, reviewed annually by Stonewall, saying that to deny them this amounts to harassment, with real-world consequences: two female academics were unlawfully discriminated against by the university for their gender-critical views, while students who circulated violent threats against them went undisciplined. Stonewall is also being sued by a black lesbian barrister, Allison Bailey, for employment discrimination based on her gender-critical views. Other views that Stonewall appears to regard as hateful include the belief that there should be restrictions on biological males competing in women’s sports, that lesbians can define their attraction as same-sex, not same-gender, and the high court’s view that children cannot meaningfully consent to taking puberty blockers.

Here's this list of 'Stonewall Diversity Champions' - sex-matters.org/stonewall-champions-list/

It's great that some organisations are starting to wise up, but this list is huge and includes many government departments and powerful public bodies.

This is institutional and policy capture on a vast scale.