So, what has suddenly happened for the tide to change?

[rabbitwoman]

So, I have spent a while reading through the twitter replies to Stonewall, Michael cashman and mermaids.

There is NO support for them. Really, none. All the @ s are damning - and along with recent events and all the organisations leaving Stonewall's diversity champion scheme, the tide really does seem to have suddenly turned. I am looking for the people supporting Stonewall et al but supportive tweets are few and, quite honestly, not very coherent.

It seems so different to just a few short months ago when no one would say anything.

What I don't understand is how come now? Stonewall have been doing this for a really long time, we have been pointing it out for years, not just months, so what has suddenly happened that decision makers have suddenly noticed and decided to do something?

I feel a bit wary. Also, angry that so many people have suffered, lost jobs and work, and there will probably be no recourse for them - no one will ever apologise to Glinner, will they? Will Daniel Radcliffe, Emily Watson and Rupert Grint and Eddie redmayne ever apologise to jkr?

Surely, if anyone with any sense at Stonewall wants a way out of this, the best thing to do would be to say, you know what? We were wrong. We got this wrong. So what can we do, how can we solve it, we are sorry and ready to listen?

Interesting question OP, and I don't know why but I'm bloody glad of it.

I genuinely don't know, but I'm glad to see it. Now we need to keep up the pressure.

I think stonewall will just chalk it up to law not being on their side but still maintain self Id and TWAW. They'll spin it as them being on the right side of history etc etc.

A lot has come from central government, I wonder if the growing number of JR's, court cases and general rumblings has made someone suddenly start joining the dots.

I don't think it's sudden. All those letters, and crowdfunders, and FOIs, and news coverage - long time in the making, but they've given us significant legal judgments, more coverage, evidence that even the media couldn't ignore... And people just realising what's been happening and going wtf?

Also, 'no debate' I think resulted in massive hubris and some awful decisions on the TRA side. All grist to the mill.

I think it's been chipping away for some time as more and more LGB people have said Stonewall no longer represents them and their interests.
What really seems to have focussed people's attention was those Freedom of Information requests.
They made all these organisations really look at what membership of the Diversity Championship scheme was costing them in terms of effort and money.
Coupled with the incidents so many were highlighting, not least Allison Bailey's impending court case, and organisations began to question whether it was worth it.

@Winkywonkydonkey

I think stonewall will just chalk it up to law not being on their side but still maintain self Id and TWAW. They'll spin it as them being on the right side of history etc etc.

I think this too.

Oddly I think Dawn Butlers poll helped, it showed where public opinion was, the spell broke and everyone saw the emperor was stark naked. More MPs have been tweeting about it, and Truss has on this issue been excellent.

But a lot of things big and small happened before that which has allowed the dam to burst

I think the super straight thing turned Reddit and once Reddit was turned (mostly male), it didn't take long for that to trickle to Twitter.

It hasn't turned completely though, mind the ongoing court case.

@Winkywonkydonkey

I think stonewall will just chalk it up to law not being on their side but still maintain self Id and TWAW. They'll spin it as them being on the right side of history etc etc.

Isn't the law not being on their side just another way of saying they broke the law???!!

..... and, we knew they were breaking the law, and giving advice that was not lawful, ages ago! Years ago! It really is as if suddenly someone has just noticed!!

You're more positive than I am! Whilst I'm glad to see these steps in the right direction, I'm not sure the tide really has turned.

A LOT of damage has been done in schools and organisations and it would take a long time for that to be undone. A whole generation of children, teenagers and young adults has had gender ideology as gospel shoved down their throats. They are the adults of tomorrow - the next teachers, doctors, legislators and writers. There is still a huge amount of virtue signalling from every direction for those who find it an easy win.

I hope there is a fair and honest debate now, and I hope we come out of all this mess into a place where all people can just be who they are, and protected and respected for that, where science and fact is recognised for what it is and not denied, and that damaging stereotypes are fought against. I really hope so.

(I hope it was The Queen!)

No sadly because "The law is on the wrong side of history" so they'll probably continue to battle.

I wonder if this domino effect will spread to the US.

I think enough people have not just noticed the emperor’s lack of clothes, but had the courage to point it out. They’ve broken the taboo, and others aren’t frightened any more.

I think that actual physical damage, like long term effects of the hormones and surgeries, more detransitioners and the eventual destruction of any women's sports should this come full circle will become more evident in the next decade.

And for that, heads should roll.

TooTiredForToday

There is no doubt, there is still a huge amount of work to undo the damage. Its just good to see some movement.

It's wonderful but I'm not cheering yet (well I am but only indoors ATM). England is changing - Liz Truss making the running, supported, one assumes, by a leader who can see that Labour are in a mess with this one. But the likelihood is that Scotland and Wales will double-down. Scotland is already a horror-story for women; Wales might seem ok since we have fewer legislative powers but Welsh Gov is one of the top 10 Stonewall Diversity Champions and is totally in thrall to the ideology.

We've won a battle but the war isn't over.

(I hope that doesn't come across as too violent, I only mean of course people should be held accountable and consequences should be robust.

I don't want to fall foul of mumsnet 's deletion policy again.....)

@rabbitwoman '..... and, we knew they were breaking the law, and giving advice that was not lawful, ages ago! Years ago! It really is as if suddenly someone has just noticed!!'

The Reindorf Report for the University of Essex a couple of weeks ago put it in the sort of plain English that must have made the lawyers of the various govt departments finally sit up and take notice. Fear of lawsuits and a desire to put clear blue water between themselves and Stonewall before the shit hits the fan?

I think SexMatters pressing the EHRC on the misleading legal advice coming from Stonewall has been key. Their intervention in Maya's case suggests they've been across this for a while. The EHRC has a new chair who has publicly stated the GC belief in biological sex being fixed is entirely reasonable. Their severing ties with Stonewall made it much easier for Truss to question the involvement of govt depts with the charity. As PPs say this has come about because of long term efforts by concerned women to raise these issues with those in power.

I'm not sure that it's more than about anything other than Stonewall and their overreach, at the moment. A big step certainly but it's only the start. An important start certainly, but there is still a long way to go. It will take time for organisations and institutions to make meaningful changes to their policies.

As for cultural attitudes. Well, as a previous poster said, there's a whole generation or two who still believe TWAW, be kind etc It's going to take a major cultural shift tbh.

I don't expect Dan, Emma nor Eddie to be apologising on social media any time soon.

Stonewall's reputation is in tatters but don't expect them to lie down quietly. I'm sure they will do a massive PR exercise soon. After all, they have the money.

Yeah...I think there's two Overton windows in operation. There's the one that applies to people who are interested in this stuff - which used to be terribly TWAW and is now "Hang on a bit, that's bollocks ". Then there's the rather more lefty-mainstream one, in which organisations that have got nothing much to do with LGB(T) are still cheerfully plugging the dogma, because they haven't heard there's a flip-side yet.
I said "two" but actually there's at least one more - the one that applies in local-rag comments pages. That one's interesting, and actually I get quite a lot of hope from it. The window goes from the vapid "oh but just be nice" on one side to the disturbing "they're all pervs" on the other; but the middle ground is, I think, "no probs with people living how they like but a bloke with meat & two veg shouldn't be on the women's team".
So - yes, I think a bit more sunlight has done wonders, but we aren't out of the woods yet. The other day my brother-in-law calmly told me that sex wasn't a binary, that the link between chromosomes and anatomy was only a hypothesis, and that we should stop forcing people to be female or male. And the trouble with people stating something patently absurd is that it takes you a while to work out why it's absurd. I mean, the guy's got two kids.

The exponential rise in teens identifying as trans has also resulted in 1000s of parents digging further and being disturbed by what they find. Certainly I hadn't thought about it much beyond 'it doesn't really affect me' / 'isn't it really rare' / 'why are they all obsessed with toilets'. Now it's so bloody obvious.
In my pretty small organisation I'm one of many parents going through this. Government departments will be the same - filled with parents.
I just don't know if the tide turning will make a difference to my child. So it's bittersweet for me.

I honestly didn't think it would happen this way.

I honestly thought there would have to be a medal winner on an Olympic podium taking a place from a beloved sports woman like Serena Williams or someone similarly well known and admired for people to start realising.

A shocking and really visible illustration of what it actually meant.....