So, what has suddenly happened for the tide to change?

[rabbitwoman]

So, I have spent a while reading through the twitter replies to Stonewall, Michael cashman and mermaids.

There is NO support for them. Really, none. All the @ s are damning - and along with recent events and all the organisations leaving Stonewall's diversity champion scheme, the tide really does seem to have suddenly turned. I am looking for the people supporting Stonewall et al but supportive tweets are few and, quite honestly, not very coherent.

It seems so different to just a few short months ago when no one would say anything.

What I don't understand is how come now? Stonewall have been doing this for a really long time, we have been pointing it out for years, not just months, so what has suddenly happened that decision makers have suddenly noticed and decided to do something?

I feel a bit wary. Also, angry that so many people have suffered, lost jobs and work, and there will probably be no recourse for them - no one will ever apologise to Glinner, will they? Will Daniel Radcliffe, Emily Watson and Rupert Grint and Eddie redmayne ever apologise to jkr?

Surely, if anyone with any sense at Stonewall wants a way out of this, the best thing to do would be to say, you know what? We were wrong. We got this wrong. So what can we do, how can we solve it, we are sorry and ready to listen?

I suspect that the large number of organisations leaving Stonewall has changed the culture. But I don't know what the pivotal moment was and I share your disquiet.

I think we need to watch out for groups that aim to change The Equality Act, that will be the next target imo.

sudden?

[checks clock]

SUDDEN?!

I only found out about this a few years ago.

Women have been screaming in a sound proof room for ... well ... let me see ...

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

More'n ten years.

@InspectorHastings

The exponential rise in teens identifying as trans has also resulted in 1000s of parents digging further and being disturbed by what they find. Certainly I hadn't thought about it much beyond 'it doesn't really affect me' / 'isn't it really rare' / 'why are they all obsessed with toilets'. Now it's so bloody obvious. In my pretty small organisation I'm one of many parents going through this. Government departments will be the same - filled with parents. I just don't know if the tide turning will make a difference to my child. So it's bittersweet for me.

This is heartbreaking. I am really sorry.

I am not a parent myself but I work in a skool. I am so sad at some of the things I am seeing, and hearing. And most of my closest friends are parents and I am also sad at some of the things they are saying - because they want to support their kids.

I have sometimes thought, oh, just give up. I don't want to make enemies, I don't want to lose my job. I don't have children, I will never compete in sport again, I don't really care about changing rooms and loos, so it won't effect me....

But the kids need us to do this..... Ungrateful swines that they are!!!!!

(joke, mumsnet, please don't delete.... 😂)

Yes - as a PP mentioned Scotland is very far from being out of the woods and may indeed double down. I think that's why I'm not too excited yet. I expect we have a lot of shit still to come here.

Still, every single step in the right direction is worth celebrating.

That's it rabbitwoman - sometimes I think, I'm a grown woman, I can put up with a lot of shit and don't actually care that much. I've got a decent life even with gender-neutral toilets and being called an ovary-haver or whatever. And then I remember that my children and their peers are being raised in this madness and some children are being permanently damaged by it. I am not having that.

@ArabellaScott

sudden?

[checks clock]

SUDDEN?!

I only found out about this a few years ago.

Women have been screaming in a sound proof room for ... well ... let me see ...

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

More'n ten years.

The point is that women might have been screaming in a soundproof room for a decade but now the door has suddenly swung open. Who turned the handle?

I am starting to think that Stonewall might be being set up as a scapegoat.

It'll be quite easy for all the 'diversity champions' to chuck Stonewall, decry it as OTT/misguided, and pretend that is all the problem.

I don't doubt that Stonewall's impact has been big, but there is a lot more to this than just one lobby group. Not only does all the 'stonewall law' and knock on effects and misunderstanding need to be undone, but the underlying who-gives-a-shit about women will, sadly, not disappear when Stonewall does.

From where I'm sitting, Ddraig, it just looks like hundreds of tiny, really hard won little actions have slowly, slowly chipped away at the massive organisations and edifices funding and lobbying. Every court case that has clarified things - Keira Bell clarifying the science, Forstater and Sinnott clarifying or/raising the issues, etc, has helped to show up the bullshit for what it is.

If there's any one thing, it's been the court cases, I think. Even when the women involved have lost, they've opened up the issues so people can see them laid out clearly.

And as everyone has said all along, all we need is sunlight, for the most part.

You can see it now, how one side is responding with multiple distortions, lies, fabrications, twisted DARVO. There's really nothing of substance supporting their arguments, so they have to resort to more falsehoods. Half the time, they're trying to convince themselves.

Truth will out in the end.

I'm also happy with the change of direction, although, I had noticed on twitter today, 'women are not good people' seems to be the new thing. Along with reasons why. I'm hoping it'll die out before it spreads, and causes more hate towards women. I thought the timing was a bit 'convenient'.

I'm wary too. Definitely clarity has been forced, and there isn't going back from that, but we were so sure a couple of years ago that this was all going to fall. It's going to be a long and changing battle and the goalposts will move over and over again.

I'm also slightly wary about 'pressure' being the thing that causes change. Why did people sign up for all this SW stuff in the first place? Did they not question it? It should have been clear at the time what it was.
I think unquestioning response to pressure, in either direction, isn't to be celebrated in itself.

'Today 23:37ArabellaScott

I am starting to think that Stonewall might be being set up as a scapegoat.'

This too makes me very sad. Some very bewildered people will think there has suddenly been a wave of homophobia and feel threatened and frightened - I know a couple of my friends, gay men, will probably never fully trust me again, might take a while to get our friendship back on track, if ever.

And for the trans men and women who were leading happy, fulfilled lives until Stonewall started advocating for them, with all the rights they needed and acceptance from their loved ones and colleagues I feel very sorry.

A lot of damage to unpick.

A combination of things...

1. Votes. A few years ago supporting something that sounded a bit progressive and cost peanuts seemed like a vote winner for the tories. Now with the whole red wall thing and at least half the population being fed up with identity politics, supporting something that is anti identity politics has become a vote winner that costs peanuts.

1. Businesses don’t care about trans or Stonewall. They will support it when it is fashionable and move on when it is not. People are just a bit sick of everything having unicorns, narwhals, mermaids and rainbows on it. Even in the literal aesthetic sense, it’s just everywhere and people have moved on. It’s all a bit paperchase prepandemic.

1. We are diverging from American politics.

1. People are sick of social media, particularly Twitter. I experience secondary embarrassment just seeing how people behave on Twitter.

1. A great many feminists and health care professionals fought it for years and lost their jobs and were taken to court to get us to this point.

Also for the teens -Stonewall or no Stonewall gender identity is massive on TikTok, YouTube etc etc. I feel it is operating under its own steam now, so will not cease until it gets replaced.

@rabbitwoman

'Today 23:37ArabellaScott

I am starting to think that Stonewall might be being set up as a scapegoat.'

This too makes me very sad. Some very bewildered people will think there has suddenly been a wave of homophobia and feel threatened and frightened - I know a couple of my friends, gay men, will probably never fully trust me again, might take a while to get our friendship back on track, if ever.

And for the trans men and women who were leading happy, fulfilled lives until Stonewall started advocating for them, with all the rights they needed and acceptance from their loved ones and colleagues I feel very sorry.

A lot of damage to unpick.

Very true and makes me even angrier.

For the first time in years, I'm feeling some real hope that we'll win this.

Sadly, we know there'll be casualties, but what's happening with Stonewall's shown us that we can't afford to take our eye off the ball again when it comes to our rights. They were hard won and I can't believe they're being squandered so easily.

My hope is that any organisation which takes from the public purse, will be put under a lot more scrutiny. They all need to abide by the same rules. They need to made accountable.

The transactivists and their allies will double down - it''s an extinction burst. We're already seeing this with the recent events surrounding Marion Millar. Their impotent rage is all too real and after years of having things their way, won't go quietly. We know this.

The way that we have organised and set up our own groups to fight this madness, is incredibly humbling and also very heartening. I'm so proud to have been part of this fightback and glad to have met so many incredible passionate, dedicated and kick-arse women, many of whom I'm now proud to call my friends.

We've got this!

Haa, love this, LibertyMole. Points 1 & 2, reality check!!

Not sure OP if you are basing your comments on twitter reaction. Please remember that despite screaming headlines twitter is the least used social media platform, but does provide cheap headlines for mainstream media.

I think there is a change in terms of organisations, because of recent legal cases, not because anyone is reading FWR (sorry!) and also wanting to be on side with Government.

For instance the guardian article that someone linked to earlier today saying this is a turn up is written by their legal correspondent. (The probably had to lock OJ out while it was written and printed!)

But among those younger people who have swallowed the stonewall mantras they are if anything more militant, as all this just confirms that right wing tories, reactionary courts (and boring old feminists) are conspiring to annihilate them.

I read the Reclaim These Streets facebook page (see old thread about them being captured) and posts on there are still relentlessly on message, and for instance some crowing about Marion Miller being charged and how they have spent the day telling "terfs" they are on the losing side.

But for most people who dont read the Guardian (tiny circulation) or the Times (behind a paywall) nothing has changed. A recent article about what has happened in Scotland didnt get loads of supportive messages but the usually feminists are getting what they deserve.

Never underestimate the deep well of hatred of women that exists throughout society, and the trans narrative has provided a "legitimate" position from which to dreide women.

Even if every Harry Potter child star apologised to JKR for wrongly accusing her, with the amount of film and music stars now endlessly vying for publicity with the latest twist and turns in their gender identities I dont think much is going to change.

We will probably have to wait for their children to grow up and start saying to them oh you are so old fashioned and out of date, for anything to really change.

We will still have to fight for the right to say that women are biological females. Too many organisations, especially the NHS, have put in place the fallacy that you can (as though shape shifting) change sex etc..

The most we can hope for is that it gradually fades away.

No one wants egg on their face. Let alone a rainbow.

I'll go with Churchill and that it's the end of the beginning.

It's beginning to get into public consciousness. Although the narrative has been that the public are mostly bigots who seize any opportunity to hate "the other", they actually tend to be ]live and let live types with a decent helping of "be kind". But it's a skeptical "be kind" that's not impervious and can quickly be worn away when exposed to enough aggro.

It looks like Stonewall, trans activists, and their fellow travellers are being forced to present their case to a skeptical public, and are now realising that telling the public that they're bigoted, or that they're too stupid to understand, or that they have to believe what they're told, will be a disaster.

Ah yes, Stumbledin, excellent posts.

I agree about twitter, and have always wondered why it seemed to have so much influence, especially in this issue.

But don't underestimate mumsnet - it often gets a name check, unlike any other forums......

I am dismayed by some of the things I hear young girls saying.... and I hate to sound patronising, but I really think that the only reason they do is because they haven't yet seen and learnt exactly how misogynistic the world is, or exactly how much society hates women - hates them. One of my lovely young friends is so proud of being outspoken and opinionated and never bauljs from saying what she feels.

Of course, that's great at school and in her home. But when she gets her first job? In a pub one night? In a courtroom?

I know for a fact that she has never seen the rage of a man being told no (in any scenario, not just intimate situations) I am frightened for her. Even without this gender ideology rubbish, I am frightened to think about the first time she voices her opinion outside of a nurturing environment....

Over the last year a lot of people have spent time online, on the phone, reading etc. There has been less daily clutter to distract. People have been able to have time to think without being influenced by group think and have been able to have private conversations in private settings.

I have had people who 3 years ago were cheerleading bring it up saying its more nuanced and insanity how its being applied in reality. Others who a couple of years ago didnt see the issue are bringing it up and wont stop going on about it. Men are fed up of hearing their wives, daughters and mothers go on about it; and finally taking notice.

I am thankful its hopefully resetting and we can get some common sense back and apply obvious suit all solutions.

Agree with you, @nauticant, but I'm a bit more optimistic and see this as the beginning of the end.

@LibertyMole is bang on rainbow glitter nonsense already feels sooo passé, so "paperchase prepandemic", something from the previous decade. There's a society to be rebuilt post-pandemic and it won't be built by glitter. Women are angrier than ever, and even those not keeping up with developments online have noticed that the world leaving aside the gender mess -- is turning increasingly women-hating. People are fed-up in general. All of it is a boil about to burst.

Institutions have started to curb Stonewall's influence, and once that wall falls down it'll be easier to push back. In general, the majority of youngsters on TikTok and social media are fairweather clout chasers doing and saying the cool zeitgeisty mantras for internet points. After time, the whole charade will begin to look uncool and the younger militant ones suckered into this trendy religion will eventually quietly withdraw from the scene and act like it's a bad dye job they once had.

@CardinalLolzy

I'm wary too. Definitely clarity has been forced, and there isn't going back from that, but we were so sure a couple of years ago that this was all going to fall. It's going to be a long and changing battle and the goalposts will move over and over again.

I'm also slightly wary about 'pressure' being the thing that causes change. Why did people sign up for all this SW stuff in the first place? Did they not question it? It should have been clear at the time what it was.
I think unquestioning response to pressure, in either direction, isn't to be celebrated in itself.

Yes, I think this is a concern. Gender ideology has emerged out of a number of other social constructs or movements.Increasing authoritarianism on the left, polarisation in politics, the destruction of universities, critical race theory, identity politics. And unfortunately feminism itself has been caught up into identity politics pretty significantly.

As long as these elements remain, I think there is real danger.

I also wouldn't discount the cost issue for participation in virtue signalling schemes. The pandemic has hit a lot of businesses and the government at the bottom line.

Just seen an interesting article posted on another thread about the legal implications for those who have bought into the Stonewall ideology.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4263278-Lawyers-know-the-truth-well-most-do

There is part of me that still cant quite get to grips with how easily so many people just accepted that women should step aside, sacrifice themselves for others (more worthy), as always.

I really think a lot of people think that. Yes we know women have a raw deal, but really women should just keep quiet and do what's best for everyone else.

@LemonSwan

Over the last year a lot of people have spent time online, on the phone, reading etc. There has been less daily clutter to distract. People have been able to have time to think without being influenced by group think and have been able to have private conversations in private settings.

I have had people who 3 years ago were cheerleading bring it up saying its more nuanced and insanity how its being applied in reality. Others who a couple of years ago didnt see the issue are bringing it up and wont stop going on about it. Men are fed up of hearing their wives, daughters and mothers go on about it; and finally taking notice.

I am thankful its hopefully resetting and we can get some common sense back and apply obvious suit all solutions.

That is true!

I'm only just beginning to be hopeful. It's like a boulder. (I hope no one gets crushed.) Like others, I'm v concerned about the next generation growing up with all this ideology, and the legacy with their teachers and lecturers who will never shake it off. The maimed bodies are another story, a deeply tragic one - and the degree to which people will be able to talk about that will be a measure of progress.

Meanwhile, The Guardian sometimes gets things right, and this account of the power of the patriarchy - never underestimate it - is cold water. We can never rest.
As Covid-19 has swept the world there has been an explosion of violence against women, and a full-blown assault on their rights. It’s time to fight back against a system that allows women to be sacrificed, erased and violated

V (formerly Eve Ensler)
Tue 1 Jun 2021 06.00 BST
Covid has unleashed the most severe setback to women’s liberation in my lifetime. While watching this happen, I have started to think we are witnessing an outbreak of disaster patriarchy.
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/01/disaster-patriarchy-how-the-pandemic-has-unleashed-a-war-on-women