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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So, what has suddenly happened for the tide to change?

196 replies

rabbitwoman · 05/06/2021 22:38

So, I have spent a while reading through the twitter replies to Stonewall, Michael cashman and mermaids.

There is NO support for them. Really, none. All the @ s are damning - and along with recent events and all the organisations leaving Stonewall's diversity champion scheme, the tide really does seem to have suddenly turned. I am looking for the people supporting Stonewall et al but supportive tweets are few and, quite honestly, not very coherent.

It seems so different to just a few short months ago when no one would say anything.

What I don't understand is how come now? Stonewall have been doing this for a really long time, we have been pointing it out for years, not just months, so what has suddenly happened that decision makers have suddenly noticed and decided to do something?

I feel a bit wary. Also, angry that so many people have suffered, lost jobs and work, and there will probably be no recourse for them - no one will ever apologise to Glinner, will they? Will Daniel Radcliffe, Emily Watson and Rupert Grint and Eddie redmayne ever apologise to jkr?

Surely, if anyone with any sense at Stonewall wants a way out of this, the best thing to do would be to say, you know what? We were wrong. We got this wrong. So what can we do, how can we solve it, we are sorry and ready to listen?

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EsmaCannonball · 06/06/2021 01:43

I had my moment of clarity on this in 1997 and I've been getting banned from websites for talking about it since about 2011. I think the difference now is that some people are starting to feel the real world consequences. I know people who were full-on 'TWAW' but who now have autistic or lesbian daughters who want to be a man. I know people who were supportive until a bloke where they work kept his beard and changed his name and now gets to use the women's toilets and locker-room. I know one person whose activity group was joined by a male who identifies as a woman (not a problem) but who also turned out to be a pension-age male who identifies as a teenage girl (eek!). I know loads of people who work in education who are terrified of losing their jobs for saying the slightest verboten thing. Mainly I know a lot of people who'd never considered this issue and who thought of transwomen as basically a type of gay man, but they are now reading about rapists in women's prisons or males competing in the women's weightlifting at the Olympics and they can all see that it is batshit crazy.

xxyzz · 06/06/2021 01:45

I think it's been a fashion, like any other, and just as being a goth or emo became passé so this will too.

Increasingly, the strongest adherents of the genderist worldview are in their 30s, and the cool kids are unlikely to see a rather sad looking Elliot Page as much of a role model; they might feel pity for Page, but have no desire to copy.

Meanwhile, despite the best efforts of regressive genderists, young people are again welcoming gender nonconformity. Harry Styles is very popular. Maneskin, who won Eurovision, speak a lot about the importance of everyone being able to wear what they like and have made men in make up (who are still without any question men) cool again.

So I think the fashion is starting to change. Legal cases, particularly the amazing Keira Bell's, have played a HUGE part in ensuring that the law also changes. And Tory women like the redoubtable Baroness have undoubtedly been pushing a lot behind the scenes.

But agree this is still at best the end of the beginning. There's still a long way to go.
But compared to even a year ago, when there were almost no stories on this, the amount of sunlight getting in now gives hope.

But still a long way to go yet.

rabbitwoman · 06/06/2021 01:51

I luffs Harry Styles. If he ever goes gender neutral or trans I am giving up the fight....

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SmokedDuck · 06/06/2021 02:02

@stumbledin

Just seen an interesting article posted on another thread about the legal implications for those who have bought into the Stonewall ideology. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4263278-Lawyers-know-the-truth-well-most-do

There is part of me that still cant quite get to grips with how easily so many people just accepted that women should step aside, sacrifice themselves for others (more worthy), as always.

I really think a lot of people think that. Yes we know women have a raw deal, but really women should just keep quiet and do what's best for everyone else.

I think that there are a huge number of people, especially in the under-35 category, who are adherents to a very odd quasi-religious ideology of Progressivism, and they also really believe the idea that conflicts of rights are not possible.

They see the march of history as a kind of unfolding of a true understanding of justice and it's instantiation in society in every way, and they think there is some sort of inevitability about it all. And it fits together perfectly - they can be no conflict of rights because truth cannot conflict.

It means it's not wrong, from their perspective, to push aside those who stand in the way - they are asserting untruths and harm others in trying to stop the unfolding of justice.

It sounds crazy but I see it played out on a seemingly daily basis.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 06/06/2021 02:05

The other day my brother-in-law calmly told me that sex wasn't a binary, that the link between chromosomes and anatomy was only a hypothesis, and that we should stop forcing people to be female or male

You'd seriously have to question the intelligence and/or integrity of a man that came out with shit like this.
Remove the words male and female entirely and there would still be only two sexes, and the ones with the penises would still know who to use, abuse and oppress.

I'm hoping now Ofsted have stopped using Stonewall that the new free to be shit Stonewall is planning to push into primary schools can be stopped.

More people are aware now. The absurdity of it all.

sashh · 06/06/2021 02:07

I think it has been the 'small' conversations.

I had a post deleted for using a articular phrase but I've been talking tot he lady who does my nails, starting with the Yannick case, and she's thought about how she would react.

Sometimes other customers have heard and asked. A month or so ago another customer asked and we discussed the girl guides, she said she would not let her daughter sleep in a tent with a male bodied person and was horrified that she would not be told ahead of time.

Then, most recently is the crime of tweeting a picture of a ribbon.

My carer has not really got things until this week. I told him about Marion Miller and I could feel him getting angry down the phone.

Yesterday he turned up wearing a suffragette badge.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 06/06/2021 02:24

@rabbitwoman

I luffs Harry Styles. If he ever goes gender neutral or trans I am giving up the fight....
Harry has always seemed very comfortable with himself though.
rabbitwoman · 06/06/2021 02:42

Exactly, Whatsnewpussyhat.

That's the key. Noone hiding your barbies and telling you boys can't play with dolls. None of this nonsense about only girls can wear make up or nail polish. Being happy with yourself, comfortable with who you are and confident to wear what you like.

Doesn't make you something you can never be.

I always loved Eddie izzard too, back when Eddie was so articulate and confident about who they were.....

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WagnersFourthSymphony · 06/06/2021 03:01

SmokedDuck

I think that there are a huge number of people, especially in the under-35 category, who are adherents to a very odd quasi-religious ideology of Progressivism, and they also really believe the idea that conflicts of rights are not possible.

They see the march of history as a kind of unfolding of a true understanding of justice and it's instantiation in society in every way, and they think there is some sort of inevitability about it all. And it fits together perfectly - they can be no conflict of rights because truth cannot conflict.

It means it's not wrong, from their perspective, to push aside those who stand in the way - they are asserting untruths and harm others in trying to stop the unfolding of justice.

It sounds crazy but I see it played out on a seemingly daily basis.

Oh yes, the belief in the inevitable march of enlightenment! So trusting, so dangerous. I'm afraid that belief is so fundamental with so many people it's going to be hard to shift.

--What, you mean penis people are still pushing us around, telling us to be quiet, telling us what to believe?

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 06/06/2021 06:21

I think it's been a fashion, like any other, and just as being a goth or emo became passé so this will too.

I tend to agree with this. I think though it will take institutions that have bought into Stonewall law to be honest and self-reflective about the changes that have been made that undermine women and perpetuate a political ideology and to reverse them.

Fucket · 06/06/2021 06:44

None of you have mentioned mumsnet. You ladies have opened our eyes. You’ve brought intellectual discussion to the phones of mainly ordinary mothers and others who use this site, who don’t, like me, have the brains or the time to research and understand the legal-ese.

So please don’t underestimate mumsnet’s importance. Why after all does mumsnet get attacked, or attract trolls.

I think the pandemic helped too. Businesses scraping to get by are going to ditch the fluffy extras to save money and staff redundancies. They’re not going to waste money on schemes that they can now see as political. Labour losing the election has shown them that their customers are mostly anti-identity politics, and will view this all in a negative light.

Roonerspismed · 06/06/2021 06:49

The fight is just beginning in scotland. Utterly terrifying what is happening

quixote9 · 06/06/2021 06:50

Lord, yes, I hope it percolates into the US at some point. The whole place is still mumbling "TWAW!" with glazed eyes.

I'm in New Zealand, where our very own much-praised PM put her ear to the ground five years ago, figured out TWAW was the popular performance, and has been kindly pointing out we should Be Kind ever since. If it gets sufficiently questionable, I'm betting we'll see her drop the BS in a heartbeat and never once admit that she changed her mind. Can't wait.

Once the pandemic is done, could we get lots of enlightened UK missionairies to come for holidays and change minds while they're here? (Speak Up For Women does great work, but largely alone. They could use some help.)

KimThomas · 06/06/2021 07:00

I think it’s been coming for a while but the key thing was the Essex Uni report. It was written by a lawyer, and it was damning. Once a proper lawyer had pointed out what Stonewall was up to, even though we’d all been pointing it out for years, it gave the green light to organisations to start leaving the scheme. It also gave newspapers the confidence to realise that there was a story here worth pursuing, and it wasn’t just a bunch of feminists making a fuss. The whole thing was then given a massive boost by (sadly) Marion’s case and by the decision of Mermaids et al to challenge the LGBA’s charitable status, which, to anyone normal, looks unhinged.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 06/06/2021 07:08

It has been years of work by many many women. Mumsnet deserves credit too.

I think it is unstoppable: I have a friend who is/was a Stonewall trustee and full on TWAW etc. Yesterday in Facebook he wrote a long post saying he could not celebrate Pride this year because of things going so wrong and being so divided. He didn’t quite say they were wrong but it was a huge huge step. And he wasn’t berated for it either. I was proud of him for publicly declaring his disquiet. But that marked a huge sea change for me: if he could disavow Stonewall publicly then the change is well afoot.

JustcameoutGC · 06/06/2021 07:08

I wouldn't be taking a victory lap just yet. Scotland is a horror show, Ireland not far behind. I can see Marion Millar being used to demonstrate that Scotland and England differ wrt trans rights. America may be lost.

The Labour, lib dems and the greens, no sense of any change there. Dawn butler I think cannot row back, she will have to be moved on, and I can't see Kier finding the backbone for that. I also think he won't pick another fight with Angela rayner anytime soon.

Stonewall and mermaids are wounded, and wounded animals can do a lot of damage.

I think all the recent events have put trans rights issues on people's radar, without the SW spin, so the naked truth is there. It's not just a bunch of scare mongering women.

Also, I think the very very broad definition that SW created around trans has caused them issues. Marginal people like that little turd of an incel in Brunel found themselves a lovely banner to wrap themselves in to get the acceptance and protection they would never have had. Without the trans tag, he would have been the weird kid everyone stayed clear of, and for good reason. Bringing people like him (and some of the rest of you, we see you) into the fold I think did some damage.

And at looooonnnnnnggggg last people are actually beginning to wake up that in a modern democracy #nodebate has no place that is is a tactic used to oppress women.

The tide is hopefully turning, but we have a long way to go and most worrying of all, we don't have a destination. Where will trans people be left once this has all blown up?

Whatthechicken · 06/06/2021 07:10

Goodness, even Adoption UK are having their say on the workplace equality index - because ‘parent who gave birth’ excludes people like me - an adoptive mother of two. I really did not expect them to Wade in on this...seems like people are more willing to speak out now. The tweet is tame - but any criticism was once something that just wouldn’t have happened.

SapphosRock · 06/06/2021 07:16

Interesting question.

I think JK Rowling had a lot to do with it and brought the issues into mainstream conversation.

The Keira Bell case.

Trans women in sport is a big one that makes people see the stark unfairness of blindly supporting TWAW.

TRAs colonising women's spaces and turning on their allies everywhere. Particularly online women's groups.

Women realising they are expected to be called 'birthing parents, cervix havers, menstruators'

Lesbians being called transphobic for not dating 'women' with penises.

The good women of Mumsnet tirelessly raising awareness about what is happening.

If you read the news or use social media it's impossible not to have noticed any of these things.

TomatoesAreFruit · 06/06/2021 07:21

I think "paperchase pandemic" is such a good phrase.

I think the truth is very few people truly believed the "stonewall ideology" but those who didn't felt silenced, and for good reason.

Let's not forget women have lost their jobs, hounded off social media, doxed, threatened with sexual assault, criminalised, cancelled, been physically assaulted and threatened with legal action over this issue.

I don't know what the future holds and I also don't know what the next generation (under 18s) will believe and value. They are inhereting a tough old world.

TooTiredForToday · 06/06/2021 07:21

I hope Scotland is not past the point of no return but with the incumbent government (which appears to be permanent Confused) I don't think we'll get that far. Legislation is being introduced, court cases are being lost, women are threatened by police. It's only a matter of time until we see a Keira Bell style court case coming from the Sandyford and maybe it will be defended, just to see what happens and make a point that we're so different up here. Who knows.

UppityPuppity · 06/06/2021 07:25

I wouldn't be taking a victory lap just yet. Scotland is a horror show, Ireland not far behind. I can see Marion Millar being used to demonstrate that Scotland and England differ wrt trans rights. America may be lost.

This worries me. I think the SNP want to be vocal in their differences to England. Destoying women’s rights is now their only mantle. There is an element of this in Ireland too. However, I assume some government departments are not devolved and therefore the push by Westminster to get rid of SW will have some effect on Scotland whether the SNP want it or not?

America - when it catches cold, the whole world sneezes.

AnyOldPrion · 06/06/2021 07:28

For me, the first big sign that the UK might be returning to a more pro-women stance was when Liz Truss announced that she wasn’t going through with self-ID and instead would be strengthening women’s rights to single sex spaces. And I think women like us did that, by commenting very coherently on the GRA consultation. There were a few big pushes to write to MPs as well.

I didn’t trust that entirely. It seemed huge at the time, but afterwards it felt as if nothing else had changed. It was a shock, having won what had seemed a significant battle, to find the juggernaut continuing plough forward as if nothing had occurred.

Stonewall, for me, is another sign that something did turn back then, but that it takes ages for such a huge movement to stop and go into reverse. I think the UK situation turned back then, and it may be starting to accelerate.

Sport should have been another major highlighter of the folly of claiming that men are women, but the delay in the Olympics has prevented that from happening. That said, it’s given countries extra time to wedge their candidates in, so when it does happen, let’s hope it has a spectacular effect.

And everything is not alright in the medical world. That’s starting to wobble as well. But like all the other strands, there’s a huge head of pressure there: massive forward direction, and many very convinced people in positions of influence.

This was never going to be fast, but the size of the machine was revealed to me after the GRA was turned. So many huge companies behind it. But how real is their support? My guess is that it’s more about virtue signaling than a true belief that this is a righteous cause.

The industries that will be hardest to turn (unfortunately they have huge influence, which has definitely been a factor) are those in Silicon Valley, where there are a great many men claiming they are women. Whether that will prove to be a permanent problem remains to be seen. If public opinion really turns against them, we might end up with the fall of huge corporations like Twitter. It would be interesting to see whether use of Twitter has already reached its peak.
accelerate.

But whether and how long it will take the rest of the world is anybody’s guess. And if the rest of the world doesn’t turn, I don’t think the UK will manage to resist for ever.

That said, I think there are small seeds of resistance everywhere. Look at the rise of the LGBA in many different countries. There are signs of women waking up in the US and in some of the countries where self-ID is already in place. I know many people don’t care too much about women in prison, but the optics of locking in rapists with groups of women is pretty awful.

I still believe in the sunlight mantra we have been chanting on Mumsnet for a while. It’s not just prisons where the optics are poor. In so many ways, misogyny has been rearing its head, and women are rising up in numbers. I hope that the fall of Stonewall might begin to have a domino effect on other organisations. Keep pulling!

Winkywonkydonkey · 06/06/2021 07:34

I wonder if the sex differences in covid outcomes have helped too. It's hard to argue that a transwoman suddenly has a better survival rate just because they identify as being a woman.

I do think teenage girls struggle to see misogyny though. I teach 18-21 year olds and it's the girls who are most vocal about these issues and often see womens outcomes in society as their own fault (e.g. you choose to have children so it's your fault if you get paid less). I'd love to follow them up in 10 years to see their opinion changes!

Nonmaquillee · 06/06/2021 07:35

@stumbledin

Just seen an interesting article posted on another thread about the legal implications for those who have bought into the Stonewall ideology. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4263278-Lawyers-know-the-truth-well-most-do

There is part of me that still cant quite get to grips with how easily so many people just accepted that women should step aside, sacrifice themselves for others (more worthy), as always.

I really think a lot of people think that. Yes we know women have a raw deal, but really women should just keep quiet and do what's best for everyone else.

Thank you for linking to this thread - the comment on the ROF comments section left at 12.24 is particularly good, describing the SW Diversity scheme as a “protection racket”.

Some very articulate opinions there. The pro-SW comments, in contrast, are knee jerk and lack nuance...

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/06/2021 07:39

It's very moving reading this and seeing laid out so many pivotal key moments.
There's an overarching thread of arrogance that seems to have driven so many initiatives. #nodebate in a democracy?
The erasure of the word mother by Stonewall's monitors exposed by the FOIs seems to have touched a cord this week. I've read many powerful (and ranty) condemnations from so many women previously unaware about this until now.
The numbers of male born sex offenders in women's prisons has exposed the troubling aspect to all this. We may not be allowed to discuss it here, but the facts are stark and raise the question.

People resent being silenced in a democracy and as all this is now being exposed, we're seeing the understandable reaction.

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