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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter to the mother who bought my daughter a binder

152 replies

MnaWoman · 30/05/2021 14:54

Did you do the research that I did when I told her no?
The research that shows that 97% of women who wear binders go on to have at least one negative complication. Did you believe her when she said she’d wear it correctly? Did the 97% also promise that they would wear out correctly?

Will you also buy her puberty blockers as she wants those too?
Will you take her to a doctor when she develops osteoporosis in her 20s? I developed it in my 40s after having a normal puberty. It’s part of my family’s medical history. When she develops one of the common side effects of puberty blockers like depression will you tell her that this odd what she wanted?

Will you buy her cross sex hormones as she wants those too?
And when she needs a prophylactic hysterectomy on her 20s in order to mitigate against the increased risk of cancer will you look after her while she recovers? And when she has a painful sex like due to vaginal atrophy will you tell her that you were just doing what she asked?

My daughter is 13.

OP posts:
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 31/05/2021 13:20

Sorry if I missed PPs suggesting this - send your letter to the Guardian for their, Letter to slot.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/series/aletterto

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 31/05/2021 13:21

Cancel my above suggestion, I've just seen that it ended yesterday after running from 2006.

IntoAir · 31/05/2021 13:51

It does not, categorically does not, solve any problems they have with their bodies.

And the really tragic thing is, that if a young girl who is uncomfortable with the way her body is developing (and given the level of public sleaze & harassment, what young girl wouldn't feel this way?) could be involved in some sort of physical activity which gives her a sense of pride in how strong her body is, or how fast., or how flexible - or whatever, then she may go a long way to feeling more 'at home' in her female body.

These things are all connected: the difficulties of keeping young teen girls in some kind of physical activity which gives them a sense of the competence and wonderfulness of their bodies - of whatever shape, size or level of skill.

The ways in which girls are moved out of public spaces by boys' activities - fab thread in here a couple of months ago.

Public sexual harassment & cat calling.

Inadequate thought, research & development on safe supportive underwear for girls undertaking physical activities.

But to read that the mother of one of your DD's friends took it upon herself to intervene - it is atrocious. Can you send a solicitor's letter? I'm a bit aghast actually, that anyone would think this was an OK thing to do, let alone someone who is not a family member.

SmokedDuck · 31/05/2021 14:12

Unfortunately people like this think they are helping, because other parents are behind the times/bigots/whatever.

It may or may not be helpful, but we've seen a huge improvement in our daughter's happiness and mental health since the school closed due to a covid infection a month ago. If I could convince her to school at home I would do it in a heartbeat.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 31/05/2021 14:54

JFC

CharlieParley · 31/05/2021 17:02

Breast binding can and should be compared to other activities where an individual seeks to alleviate psychological pain by seeking physiological change.

As it frequently causes permanent damage to skin, muscles or bone, always causes physical discomfort with physical pain experienced by three quarters who bind, it can legitimately be compared to and arguably be categorised as self-harm.

Like other forms of self-harm, it is not an effective way to deal with the underlying emotional distress and any relief it provides can therefore only ever be temporary.

Although the 97% figure from the survey quoted by the OP is already bad enough, I should emphasise that 97% experience at least one negative outcome, and more than half of them experienced at least two negative outcomes.

The authors surveyed only on the 28 negative outcomes most commonly reported in the medical literature and information provided by those who bind.

Here they are in full:

rib fractures, back pain, chest pain, rib or spine changes, bad posture, shoulder pain, shoulder joint ‘popping’, muscle wasting, numbness, headache, overheating, fatigue, weakness, lightheadedness or dizziness, cough, respiratory infections, shortness of breath, heartburn, abdominal pain, digestive issues, breast changes, breast tenderness, scarring, swelling, acne, itch, skin changes and skin infections. [my emphasis]

Separately mentioned were spinal misalignment, fluid build-up in the lungs, collapsed lung, sores and permanent skin damage.

Several skin issues, which were experienced by over half of survey respondents, are associated with poorer outcomes if "chest reconstruction surgery" is pursued later. That's one of the reasons why the transmasculine community is so concerned about the safety of breast binding.

The survey also only asked adults about their experiences. In the developing child negative outcomes can be expected to be worse and occur more often.

That's because there are no safe binding methods. There are no clinical guidelines for binding safely. Commercial binders, which are perceived to be safer by the transmasculine community, are in reality associated with more negative outcomes, but even sports bras and minimisers are included in the list of binding methods leading to negative outcomes. This is not because sports bras are inherently unsafe, but because they are designed to be worn for shorter periods and not for the ten hour duration on seven-days-a-week most respondents chose to wear them.

That mother then MnaWoman is not only overstepping a boundary in allowing something that the parent of another child has expressly forbidden - something she has no right to do - she is in my view also enabling your daughter to self-harm. My guess (and hope) is that she hasn't done the research and that she means well, but is ultimately ignorant of the issues.

I would advise her that she is interfering with your parental rights without having the legal right to do so, wholly without having undertaken a risk assessment of the negative outcomes for your daughters health and development and that this interferes with your child's rights under Article 6 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC).

(This article forms one of the four main principles of the UNCRC and encompasses the right of the child to develop and survive in conditions that do not negatively impact on their physical or mental health.)

Obviously that other mother is not a state actor, local authority or a public sector organisation who could be held to account for breaching a child's rights under the UNCRC. But I would not hesitate to point out to her that every child has human rights protected under the UNCRC and that she is not only interfering with one but several of the rights your child has with her action.

The other relevant articles are concerned with your rights and responsibilities to look out for the best interests of your child and for your child having a legal guardian as a champion for their wellbeing. No random person can simply assume those rights, however well meaning.

Furthermore I would inform her that were your daughter to attend PE lessons while wearing a breast binder and collapse as a result of a punctured lung thanks to a rib fractured by the binder (this can and has happened) you would not hesitate to report her to the police for causing grievous bodily harm to your child. I would point out that she has no liability insurance and no legal indemnity if your child should be injured as a result of her buying a breast binder against your express wishes.

I have no idea whether any words to her will have any effect, but I would aim my ire squarely at that other mother and express it as coldly as possible. And rightfully so.

Then, as you probably are already doing, I would talk again to my daughter about the pitfalls of self-harming behaviours and about boundaries.

MnaWoman · 31/05/2021 17:59

@CharlieParley thank you so much. That’s so straight to the heart of the issue.

And to others who suggested it. Yes my daughter has issues with her body and we are seeking professional help. She didn’t “vibe” with her first therapist and we’re on a waiting list for another.

Thank you all again.

OP posts:
IntoAir · 01/06/2021 09:39

Good luck, OP Flowers

SedentaryCat · 01/06/2021 09:59

Good luck OP. The other person should not have supplied your daughter with a binder, no matter what.

My daughter wears a binder - something I'm not happy about but it turns out she had been wearing a homemade one for a year or so before ordering one herself online. She's almost 17 though and I suspect waited until she was older so it was more difficult for me to put my foot down. She's annoyed that it doesn't bind tightly enough (although I'm not due to the health implications) and wants to go a size smaller. She hasn't yet ordered the smaller one.

She has never wanted breasts, even when she was very young, but I think the non-binary gender identification may be a phase and I'm just waiting it out. There's been some talk about surgery too - but, again I think that's something that might pass.

It's a difficult path to tread and I know that I would be very angry at anyone interfering by buying a binder, or by influencing my DD in any way. I hope your DD isn't on the waiting list for a therapist for too long, and that she 'gels' with the one she finally sees.

oxalisRed · 01/06/2021 10:16

Seething on your behalf OP, that woman has no right to do this for your child regardless of whether or not she knows the risks of binding.

Thank you also for the free version of that article, I have forwarded it on to my 18yr old binding daughter :/

Good luck with it all and take care Flowers

Lovetomato · 01/06/2021 12:10

Binders can also distort your breasts by squishing them down unnaturally. So if you have an issue with your body and having breasts, they effectively make them look saggier and mis-shapen feeding back into the self-fulfilling, self-loathing even more.

Flaxmeadow · 01/06/2021 12:25

I'd be doing more than sending a letter.

Not in front of anyone else, especially not daughter and friend, but I'd find her, confront her face to face and make it clear to her that she is YOUR daughter not HERS.
"She is MY daughter"

WarOnWomen · 01/06/2021 12:28

Good luck, OP.

CharleyParley. Excellent post.

I can't comprehend why anyone would interfere in such a blatant way. Unless it's ignorance or does she have a daughter who also binds?

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 01/06/2021 13:39

All Power to your elbow MnaWoman Flowers

Thinking too of all the struggling young women mentioned by posters on this thread Sad

(& CharlieParley I love your posts & that one is pure gold)

Igmum · 01/06/2021 15:44

I am so sorry OP this is horrific. I wish you could report her to the Police for child abuse. Sending love Thanks

MadameKali · 01/06/2021 17:35

Flowers I'm sorry this is happening to you.

Shocking over reach by that parent and she needs to be told that. However, this is what happens when people are led to believe that GNC kids will self harm and/or attempt suicide if not 100% affirmed. I am perhaps naïvely sure that she wouldn't have had any ill intent. She probably felt she was helping out an unhappy child.

MnaWoman · 02/06/2021 07:17

To those posters who thought that this was an anti trans post - you need to give your heads a wobble.

Seriously, what mother would celebrate a 13 year old child wanting and wishing for puberty blockers and cross sex hormones with the myriad of side effects and complications?

This was a thread about another mother overstepping my boundary, a thread about safeguarding, a thread about a mother’s concern for her 13yo child’s long term well being, a thread written by a mother who said she was broken and you chose not to see any of that.

You choose instead to overlook it and call me names.

Shame on you.

OP posts:
WineAcademy · 02/06/2021 07:35

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WineAcademy · 02/06/2021 07:36

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WhereAreWeNow · 02/06/2021 07:51

I'm so angry on your behalf OP. What on earth was this woman thinking?!

FannyCann · 02/06/2021 08:01

Very sorry that this woman has done this and also sorry that your thread that should have been a supportive thread has been somewhat bumpy OP.

I do hope you are able to talk to your daughter and that you find a helpful therapist.

Excellent post as always CharlieParley

SkodaKodiaq · 04/06/2021 17:35

Is your daughter ok @MnaWoman ? Sorry if I missed it, but did you ever get to speak to this woman? Thanks

hoodathunkit · 04/06/2021 20:22

Surely if someone had attempted to iron your daughter's breasts she would be in jail?

I was horrified by these accounts of breast ironing of girls in the UK

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jan/26/revealed-dozens-of-girls-subjected-to-breast-ironing-in-uk

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jan/26/revealed-dozens-of-girls-subjected-to-breast-ironing-in-uk

Breast ironing a criminal offence

Surely breast binding, which is also dangerous and disfiguring, should also be a criminal offence?

I have the rage grrrrr

rogdmum · 04/06/2021 20:32

I am very firmly of the opinion that the sale of binders to the under 18s should be illegal. We ban all sorts of other things for the under 18s and I question whether, for example, a 14 year old can really understand the potential long term damage she is doing to her breasts.

hoodathunkit · 04/06/2021 20:38

It is a criminal offence to tattoo anyone under the age of 18 in the UK

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1969/24

How can it be illegal to tatto someone under 18 but not to give a binder to a 13 year old?

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