Young, Male and Anti-Feminist – The Gen Z Boys Who Hate Women

[MondayYogurt]

Sorry it's Vice, but possibly worth discussing: www.vice.com/en/article/dyv7by/anti-feminist-gen-z-boys-who-hate-women

Half of young men in the UK now believe that feminism has “gone too far and makes it harder for men to succeed”. These are the results of a significant study published in July 2020 by anti-extremism charity HOPE not Hate. The study, Young People in the Time of COVID-19, surveyed 2,076 16- to 24-year-olds on their ideological beliefs.

For example, my ex housemate and good friend is an attractive Eastern European woman on a low salary and has guys falling over her. She hasn't got much in the way of qualifications but she's funny, very well dressed and that seems to be enough. If we reversed the situation I'm not sure that a good looking but financially poor male (maybe a gym instructor) would be getting interest from the same 'calibre' of female as she does male.

Will she still get the same amount of interest when she is over 40, I wonder?

She hasn't got much in the way of qualifications but she's funny, very well dressed and that seems to be enough. If we reversed the situation I'm not sure that a good looking but financially poor male (maybe a gym instructor) would be getting interest from the same 'calibre' of female as she does male.

Feminists want to be raped/killed less.

You want the same "calibre" of sexual partner that you've randomly decided women get. Have you been hanging out on incel boards? Honestly. There is nothing more off-putting than a man who thinks he deserves to get laid

@TriteMale

So she didn't say what you posted at all then..

'The suggestion that we should ignore the leading cause of death of young men due to the actions of a small percentage of men.''

Suggesting that women should try and actively stop men holding events to discuss male suicide is kind of saying this.

I think most posters on here would be fine with a group specifically set up to discuss male suicide. It's an important issue and needs addressing! As does prostate cancer and all sorts of things that just affect men.

It is the idea that feminist groups should devote time to male issues that most of us would take issue with.

I just don't believe men live the celebrated and privileged life that many seem to think

Feminism isn't about men. It's about improving life for women. Funnily enough a lot of the changes feminists want in society would also benefit men (reducing male violence, changing the culture so men could express emotions other than anger). But you have just decided feminists are the problem cos you can't get a shag. Ugh.

I don't think it's a revolutionary concept to say that men are more judged by potential partners and society for being a low earner.

And women are judged more harshly for being conventionally unattractive and committing the mortal sin of getting older.

I think it is probably easier to find ways to increase one's earning power than to get younger.

posters have confirmed this by stating their belief that men organising a day to talk about their issues is 'deeply offensive' and should be actively stopped

Not All Posters Are Like That

@TriteMale

The suggestion that we should ignore the leading cause of death of young men due to the actions of a small percentage of men.''

Who has said that?

The poster upthread who suggested that a day to talk about male suicide was "deeply offensive" as would be any criticism of trying to shut it down.

Mate, if men liked feminism then we'd be doing it wrong.

I disagree. For most men, a woman (their wife/partner) is their most cherished human in the whole world and somebody they would happily give their life to save. Same for women. It may be a cheesy term but some women too about their 'bae' (before any other).

The vast majority of men and women want to get on with the opposite sex and want their loved ones to succeed and live fulfilled lives.

I don't want anyone to give their life to save mine.

What I want is for men to stop killing us. That just seems a lot... simpler?

They don't seem to be able to do that.

So until they do I'll carry on giving precisely zero fucks that the movement designed to liberate me upsets my oppressors.

It really is as simple as that.

Contempt for one specific man posting regurgitated tripe does not equal contempt for all men.

It would help matters if myths weren't constantly recirculated.

The notion of the feminisation of the workforce is a load of old tut. Working class women have always worked in huge numbers; in the 19th century, there were mills and factories with an over 95% female workforce, for example.

Women ran their own businesses. Most of medieval England's brewers were women.

Again, with divorce statistics. Though tempered by high mortality rates, marriages still broken down in the 19th century. Spouses just left and went to work in another town or city, or went back home to parents. No one had any way of tracking bigamy, for example; folk just got remarried or weren't married in the first place. Most of Whitechapel wasn't married to their other halves back in the 1890s.

And violent male behaviour? I've come across local cases in the early 1800s that made my hair curl - - hardcore home invasions with pistols pointed at children's heads.

It's nothing new. Female heads of household even had the vote prior to the Great Reform Act under Tudor and Stuart law (the removal of which was the real origin of the suffragette movement).

Once you realise this, you simply cannot argue that feminism is the cause of any kind of modern social strife. What second wave femininism in Britain was was a backlash to the restrictions put on British women during the post-war period, restrictions designed to prevent revolution from returning soldiers and restrictions that made navigating life as a female extremely difficult.

Crikey, in the medieval period, women were the lusty sex. All rapacious Eves trying to lure good Christian lads into the sins of the flesh. 😂

And even upper class married women had copious amounts of power. As chatelaines, they ran manor houses that were, pretty much, the regional businesses in the area.

Modern MRA views about feminism are just so historical illiterate. Half of what they whitter on about is just bollox.

TriteMale it’s great that IMD is giving men a focus to start tackling the problem of male suicide and other issues specific to men. I wish it every success on that score. However, what you may not completely understand is that for many women, IMD is predominantly used as a jibe on IWD, over and over and over again, to the point it actually became a trope that the comedian Richard Herring used to spend the whole of IWD tweeting “19 November” to the literally dozens and dozens and dozens of men who would inevitably ask, year after year, “so when’s IMD?” So forgive us if it raises our hackles, because for too long it’s been associated with the whines of exactly the sort of anti-feminist men we encounter all too often, who begrudge women having any space or time to themselves to talk about the issues pressing to us.

(Incidentally, IMD was originally set up to celebrate positive male role models, including present fathers. What does it say about masculinity that they were the exception that needed celebrating, rather than the minimum standard one could expect from a man?)

Trite I think you need to think a bit broader to tackle the issue.

'I do feel sometimes that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, though. Feminists often say "men should stop blaming their problems on women and instead focus on helping other men". But when we try and organise days to do exactly that, the same feminists protest against them and attempt to get them banned - there are examples of both of these views on this very thread. '

When you say 'we' do you mean you? Personally?

I posted links to 3 charities that try to tackle male suicide. What are your views on them? Do you think they're good? Or lacking?

What actions do you think need to be taken around this issue?

You mention that you believe DV perpetrated by women against men may be a leading cause. The young men I know who killed themselves were not cohabiting.

Is research needed? Specialist mental health services? Public info about spotting when men are in trouble with their MH?

is there a methods angle. EG when purchases of painkillers were restricted, suicide decreased.

What are you personally- as a part of 'we'- actively doing?

Waiting for one day a year in not necessary. Any day is a good day to do something for a cause you care about.

You are worried about male suicide rates. I'm not surprised. They are high and the impact on families is massive.

What are your thoughts?

I think most posters on here would be fine with a group specifically set up to discuss male suicide. It's an important issue and needs addressing! As does prostate cancer and all sorts of things that just affect men.

It is the idea that feminist groups should devote time to male issues that most of us would take issue with.

I don't think that's even been suggested though.

The OP was specifically about the fact that so many younger men don't have a positive view of feminism. Or more specifically, if you ask them about feminism specifically, that's what they say. Whether, like young women, they would respond differently if the word feminism wasn't used, we don't know.

But it's pretty reasonable to answer, they don't like it because of x, y, or z, and even to expect that the person asking might take the answer seriously. Rather than calling people trolls.

Sometimes you get the impression here that feminism, totally uniquely in human history, never has any call to change direction, rethink issues, consider whether it is really fully representing the interests of those it's meant to, is failing to communicate it's message effectively, has been caught up in some sort of fad elements that need to be purged, whatever.

Which might be reasonable things to talk about when the majority of the people you are supposed to be representing don't want to associate themselves with your cause.

The majority of women agree with the aims of feminism. It's the label they reject. The reasons for which have been discussed.

This isn't new. It's always been this way.

It's always been a dirty word.

'Sometimes you get the impression here that feminism, totally uniquely in human history, never has any call to change direction, rethink issues, consider whether it is really fully representing the interests of those it's meant to, is failing to communicate it's message effectively, has been caught up in some sort of fad elements that need to be purged, whatever.'

Feminism is not an org or a group etc. There's no unified view. No way to say 'ooh the popularity polls are down let's change our strategy'. We're not the Greens or something.

What's on my mind?

The push back on abortion rights in some countries and the punitive laws in others.

The situation of the Uighar women who are being held in China.

The fact that grooming gangs are still operating in certain parts of the country even after all the outcry.

What children are learning from porn/ the way the media reports things eg children selling pics etc on onlyfans and sod all focus on the men buying them

The general concern here and everywhere tbh how women tend to bear the brunt of it when economies go to shit

The rape stats recently only 1.5% of reports resulting in CHARGE. not going to court etc. Having anyone charged.

Loads of other stuff tbh.

Which bits of that are faddy?
None of it is appealing - but that's not a reason to ditch any of it surely?

And what's this representing thing? I only speak for myself.

Ha that was way more succinct!

Have you looked at what actually happened with the one incidence of cancellation that I assume you're referring to? I'm guessing not. It's quite interesting.

As I mentioned though, you don't need a special day to act. You can help at any time.

What are your thoughts on the charities I mentioned? Do you think their approach is right? Are some better than others? Are there things they are missing? What do you think needs to be done to tackle the problem?

I'm more interested in tackling sexual violence globally than the pay gap tbh although that matters too.

EG recent reports of sexual assaults and rape in schools and it not being dealt with (or prevented).

The charities one is the main one. Interested in your views.