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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.

999 replies

Fallingirl · 27/05/2021 21:39

Posie is planning to re-build the women’s sector, starting with crowd funding for a women-only refuge.

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18
CharlieParley · 01/06/2021 19:34

Posie is poking the women's sector

Too right she is. It needs poked.

The women's sector has a few other issues than just their trans-inclusive policies. As nosafeguardingadults has repeatedly told us on this thread, not all who work in the sector deliver the service vulnerable women need in the way they need it and with the support they need. And they refuse to listen.

And if anyone thinks Scotland is the only part of the UK where women's sector organisations have been endorsing and advocating for the doctrine of gender identity and adopted policies based on it, they're woefully uninformed.

Yes, there are frontline workers terribly upset about policies adopted by regional or national umbrella management. But they remain silent. All we hear are the believers in the doctrine. Are we really to blame for getting the impression that the sector has abandoned those of us who cannot recover when males are present?

I'm not a mindreader. And even if I ask I cannot get the answers I need because sector organisations care more about being known for being welcoming to male members of the trans community than being a safe place for traumatised female victims who need a female-only therapeutic environment.

Whether that's for fear of attack or faith in the doctrine makes no difference to me in practical terms. And that's a dereliction of duty in my view. A serious one. One that is and has already been seriously damaging to such women, myself and others I know included.

Do you know how hard it is to publicly advocate for your need to access a female-only provision when you should be focusing all of your energy on recovery? Knowing the hostility you're going to get?

It's not a decision traumatised women should have to make.

That's the job of the VAWG sector organisations. And even though some individuals have valiantly stood up for us on this issue, the sector as a whole is not doing it. On the contrary, the sector as a whole stands in opposition to our needs, some leaders even publicly stating or endorsing the view that we are no different from racists or homophobes. Mostly they're denying we exist at all.

And btw no industry, no organisation should ever be exempt from criticism because they provide a vital service or because they are underfunded or because most who work there are highly dedicated to the people they support.

That never ends well.

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 19:39

Surely it's best for people on the thread, here, to discuss concerns though, like maybe not everyone knows about the inviting men with guns in women's spaces, or other things like the quote upthread about abuse victims only getting what they allow people to do to them .. why do people not want this mentioned?

Well it has been mentioned. About 5 million times. Along with accusations of her being a racist, like Katie Hopkins, that she should run a cafe, and so on. I think it's great that you're all doing this. Because it's poured sunlight on to what women are up against. And that's being reflected in the fundraiser which is going up and up. So thanks. 👍

TheShadowyFeminist · 01/06/2021 19:46

@Erikrie

Surely it's best for people on the thread, here, to discuss concerns though, like maybe not everyone knows about the inviting men with guns in women's spaces, or other things like the quote upthread about abuse victims only getting what they allow people to do to them .. why do people not want this mentioned?

Well it has been mentioned. About 5 million times. Along with accusations of her being a racist, like Katie Hopkins, that she should run a cafe, and so on. I think it's great that you're all doing this. Because it's poured sunlight on to what women are up against. And that's being reflected in the fundraiser which is going up and up. So thanks. 👍

I heard a rumour that every time posie does a livestream video, puppies within a 1 mile radius lose the ability to wag their tails

When she sells a dog whistle from her Standing for Women website, the puppies lose their hearing

And every time someone mentions things posie says with 'concern', a MNetter rage-donates £10 for every concern posted.

SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 19:50

Sapphos do you genuinely believe that Posie is planning on raising money for strictly women only refuges, in the U.K., with a view to encouraging armed men to enter them?

It's her idea not mine 🤷‍♀️ I imagine she would love the drama of it all and it would prove her right.

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 19:54

TheShadowyFeminist Grin

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 19:55

Well, we'd certainly better not discuss what is currently happening and is going to continue to happen. Better to speculate that Posie is going to ship over gun-owning men from America to the UK with our strict gun-control, just so they can go to the toilet in a women's refuge.

extract from past post www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4071477-Mridul-Wadhwa-and-Rape-Crisis-Scotland?msgid=101506181#101506181

If you look through threads generally around refuges you will find accounts by MNetters who attended meetings with refuge staff where they tried to discuss their need for single sex facilities and the distress and harm being caused to them by staff determined to champion mixed sex facilities as more inclusively progressive.

One MNetter described that by the end of the meeting many of the women were in tears. Staff were interested only in the inclusion of people born male in the services and refuges and had no interest whatsoever in what the female born people were saying, expressing or sharing other than to dismiss it as wrong. Afterwards those staff (I believe this included area management) stated openly that no female born service users had ever raised any issues with them, so denying those women, their voices or that meeting ever existed.

When you have staff and managers who are male born and therefore have a personal stake in this perceived inclusiveness, the fairness to female born people and their voices becomes highly questionable. And that would be if those people and their voices were allowed to even be heard, never mind listened to and supported in the way that male born service users are.

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 19:55

I imagine she would love the drama of it all and it would prove her right.

That's quite an imagination you have there. Be careful not to let it run away with you now...

CorvusPurpureus · 01/06/2021 19:56

@SapphosRock

Sapphos do you genuinely believe that Posie is planning on raising money for strictly women only refuges, in the U.K., with a view to encouraging armed men to enter them?

It's her idea not mine 🤷‍♀️ I imagine she would love the drama of it all and it would prove her right.

Well, no, it isn't.

We've been over what she said, & the context of her remarks, & we disagree as to whether she meant them as a reductio ad absurdem or not.

But is that a genuine concern of yours about her fundraising to offer a female only refuge service in the U.K.?

I'm just asking if you genuinely believe that, because it seems terribly far fetched that you would.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/06/2021 19:56

This thread is something else

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 19:56

Better to speculate that Posie is going to ship over gun-owning men from America to the UK with our strict gun-control, just so they can go to the toilet in a women's refuge

Gosh, does that mean our fundraising is going to pay for their flights over here too? 😲

CorvusPurpureus · 01/06/2021 20:01

Basically, it seems that if I admire Julie Bindel, I get a mail order lesbian bride, or if I admire Posie Parker, I get Wyatt Earp.

I'm running out of spare rooms here .

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/06/2021 20:02

It'll presumably pay for their covid vaccines too, so they can travel internationally.

Let's hope she doesn't bring over these American women while she's at it.

extract

I have worked part-time at a shelter for homeless women in Maine since 2016. The shelter was originally conceived as an alternative to the city’s larger, mixed-sex shelter, where many women were too afraid to stay. Afraid of the rapes and assaults that took place at that shelter, and of the ease with which the abusive husbands/boyfriends/pimps they had become homeless fleeing could track them down there, women were opting to sleep on the streets instead. And so a separate women-only shelter was established, to offer vulnerable women a safer refuge from men’s violence.

In the time that I have worked at the shelter, men have always been welcome to stay alongside the women, on one condition: the men must tell us they are women. They may refer to themselves by “feminine” names or dress in “feminine” attire, but we do not require they do these things — who are we, after all, to police anyone’s gender expression? As long as a man claims that he is a woman, our doors are open to him.

(Continues)

When women report harassment by men in the shelter space, or approach staff to voice their discomfort, my coworkers’ customary response is to ignore the women’s reports completely. They do not record the reports in our daily logs, nor do they mention the incident to a supervisor. They do not confront the man to speak to him about his behaviour. If, while describing the harassment she is experiencing, a woman calls the man a man, or “he” rather than “she,” my coworkers take the time to correct her by pointing out that she is mistaken: this man is a woman. My coworkers are less apt to take the time to investigate the woman’s claims. A woman is more likely to be scolded for “transphobia,” should she commit the savagery that is “misgendering,” by forgetting to be blind to a man’s maleness, than a man is to be held accountable for predatory behaviour towards women. My coworkers, eager to show off their impeccable gender politics, rush to validate men’s declarations of womanhood. A dense smother of self-congratulatory smarm hovers around their attention to pronouns and the related linguistic gymnastics of queerness. Within this fog, it is apparently impossible to see the women in front of them, seeking their support.

When women objected to the man masturbating in a nearby bed at night, a coworker mocked the women’s prudery to me, expecting I would find it equally absurd. How puritanical and square to be upset by some guy jerking off to pornography three feet away! My coworker did not write a report about the complaint. I did, but nothing came of it. Several weeks later, the man was restricted from the shelter, after threatening to shoot everyone, but his public masturbation and the distress it caused women trying to sleep in neighbouring beds was never addressed.

More recently, a woman told me she knew that staff would never do anything about the man who follows her around the shelter, watching her; who stands by her bed, watching her. Sometimes this man wears a wig. He asks that we call him by a feminine name. The woman he is harassing is an incest victim with severe PTSD from years of abuse. This woman told me that because of our prioritization of what she termed “the gender thing,” staff refuse to intervene in the situation. The man could therefore torment her with impunity.

This woman told me it was unfair, and I agreed. It is unfair. I told her that if the man began bothering her on a day I was working, she could come find me, and I would confront him. I made a note of her allegations in the daily log. With the scant authority afforded to me as part-time support staff, there was little else I could do. But nothing has happened, in terms of repercussions for this man, and nothing will happen. He will remain in the shelter, and a woman victimized by men since her childhood will continue to endure male harassment in a space expressly created to provide women with some modicum of sanctuary from men’s violence. My coworkers will continue to remind her to use the man’s preferred pronouns when she tells them yet again what he is doing to her, in hopes that this time, someone might take her seriously, might make it stop.

The men also complain about how they are treated by the women, by staff, and by the world. The men tell us that they do not feel accepted or understood by the women at the shelter, or by anyone at all, anywhere. The fact that not every single living human takes these men at their word that they are women is an injustice cruel beyond bearing, and the men suffer. The men are hurt. They feel sad. Invariably, my coworkers console the men, reassuring them that they have every right to be at the shelter, that they are no different than any other woman there. My coworkers stick up for the men — the real victims, subject to the brutality of bad, mean women so backwards as to confuse the erection in the bed next to them for anything other than a female penis. My coworkers ask the men what staff can do to help them feel safe, comfortable, accepted, and supported. Staff meetings are held to discuss how we ought to update the shelter to make it a friendlier place for men.

Continues: www.feministcurrent.com/2020/09/13/protecting-men-at-the-womens-shelter/

SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 20:07

@CorvusPurpureus

Basically, it seems that if I admire Julie Bindel, I get a mail order lesbian bride, or if I admire Posie Parker, I get Wyatt Earp.

I'm running out of spare rooms here .

I think Julie Bindel would be appalled if you got a mail order lesbian bride. Women are not commodities!

Funny post though Grin

Erikrie · 01/06/2021 20:08

Let's hope she doesn't bring over these American women while she's at it.

Let's hope not. She might do by accident though. 🤔

CorvusPurpureus · 01/06/2021 20:22

You'd think, Sapphos, but the same TRAs who are all for Posie = armed men in the Ladies were arguing that one just as seriously Wink.

Datun · 01/06/2021 21:01

@SapphosRock

Sapphos do you genuinely believe that Posie is planning on raising money for strictly women only refuges, in the U.K., with a view to encouraging armed men to enter them?

It's her idea not mine 🤷‍♀️ I imagine she would love the drama of it all and it would prove her right.

Oh my God sapphos, you actually said yes to that question!
Sophoclesthefox · 01/06/2021 21:30

@CorvusPurpureus

Basically, it seems that if I admire Julie Bindel, I get a mail order lesbian bride, or if I admire Posie Parker, I get Wyatt Earp.

I'm running out of spare rooms here .

Grin

This thread is in equal parts utterly batshit, and quite inspiring. This whole debate certainly does attract interesting people.

I wasn’t sure if I would donate, but seeing this thread bounce to the top of the boards again and again has convinced me that I probably should.

So I’ve moved from neutral to positive, mostly because I can’t stand seeing people drag women down for not doing it “right”. Being an inveterate good girl and rule follower, I can’t help a sneaking admiration for mavericks.

CorvusPurpureus · 01/06/2021 21:33

I don't even get what it would 'prove right'.

Let's say we are in some Upside Down where a campaigner for funding - not hands on running - women only U.K. refuges secures exactly the funding needed, works with experienced women in the sector, opens the refuge & then...somehow sources a supply of armed men, in the bloody U.K., & invites them in.

Let's be clear that Posie's detractors on this thread feel quite strongly that anything she says, she means. It's been referenced as a way to attack her & also as a grudging acknowledgement.

So, having put ALL this into women only spaces - having been clear that that is the entire point of her campaign - she's going to then, somewhere in the U.K., find men who are licenced to carry guns & suggest that they need to answer a call to arms to support women's refuges, starting with the hypothetical one she's raising money for?

To be fair, she could try my uncle - he's in his late 70s, farms, has a licensed shotgun knocking around somewhere & would probably agree that women's refuges should be single sex.

But I doubt he'd be up for - well, I've actually no idea what Sapphos & Quaagars think might happen, or if they really that Posie might be signing up elderly gents with rabbit rifles for, erm, drama.

It's just such absolute absurd bollocks, it really is.

SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 21:35

Datun I must say your stance on PP surprises me the most. You have spent so many years patiently explaining the GC position calmly and sanely in ways that are relatable to so many women.

Then Posie comes along and makes these cavalier remarks about men with guns going into female spaces and here you are cheering her on. Does it not piss you off that she's making GC feminism look a bit deranged?

SpindleWhorl · 01/06/2021 21:43

Oh well. Luckily it's not women's jobs to un-disappoint disappointed MN posters.

TheShadowyFeminist · 01/06/2021 21:45

Are we still talking about posie's armed militia?

🤦🏻‍♀️

Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.
Sophoclesthefox · 01/06/2021 21:46

Would you stand by everything you’ve ever said, sapphos? Should everyone ask you to do that? Would you be OK if someone here dragged up every transactivist supporting comment that you previously made, no matter how unhelpful to the topic that you’re actually commenting on?

Because I’m surprised that you, as someone who changed her views on this topic, would feel equipped to demand that high standard of another woman.

I don’t think people should ask that of you, and I don’t think you should ask it of Posie.

Datun · 01/06/2021 21:49

@SapphosRock

Datun I must say your stance on PP surprises me the most. You have spent so many years patiently explaining the GC position calmly and sanely in ways that are relatable to so many women.

Then Posie comes along and makes these cavalier remarks about men with guns going into female spaces and here you are cheering her on. Does it not piss you off that she's making GC feminism look a bit deranged?

No, she's not a gender critical feminist. 😁
SapphosRock · 01/06/2021 21:51

Sophoclesthefox if I was asking for money then I would expect scrutiny.

Also Posie hasn't changed her mind or said anything to the contrary about her men with guns strategy. As far as I know she still thinks it's a great idea.

MiladyBerserko · 01/06/2021 21:53

Loving your post Shadowy