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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie putting her money where her mouth is. Lets do this.

999 replies

Fallingirl · 27/05/2021 21:39

Posie is planning to re-build the women’s sector, starting with crowd funding for a women-only refuge.

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howtocomplain · 28/05/2021 01:10

@Tibtom

howtocomplain what are you suggesting instead? That women unable to cope with men in a refuge self exclude?
I'm suggesting Posie uses her platform to get behind the women in the sector who are doing good work on this, and give any money raised to expert women's services that do exclude men.

Less glamorous, but better for the service users.

LovelyLaura62 · 28/05/2021 01:12

This reply has been deleted

This post has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

howtocomplain · 28/05/2021 01:13

It's not my impression that Posie is motivated by vanity. I've never seen that. She's motivated by passion for protecting women and girls.

Datun, I have utmost respect for you, but this is a rare occasion where I disagree with you. We all want sound, wise leaders. Posie is not that person. Good at making a stir, yes. Egoless? Hardly.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/05/2021 01:51

Is Posie going to create an extra man-free refuge place where there was previously none? That's my question.

First of all I'd like to quote from an advice post made by one trans activist for other activists. I think it illustrates what our international women's sector has been up against.

Parallel Institutions

A solid first step is to create organizations that are inclusive to all that are redundant with whatever function the TERF’s run. Sometimes it’s enough to simply beat the TERF’s at their own game. People like less discrimination, not more. Our trend as a society is toward greater understanding of one another. For this to happen, you have to provide a viable alternative to whatever function the TERF’s are currently offering so people can choose to avoid them.

For example, in Vancouver, you have several great rape crisis centers, such as the WAVAW, that serve all women. That stands in contrast to centers who abuse the notion of “women only spaces” to ban women from aid. All of these centers are universally superior in safety, size, and quality to centers that are not inclusive.

In Austin, we have Central Texas Femdoms (CTFD), a kink group for dominant females that is trans inclusive. They formed due to the transphobic comments of the founder of another pro-Domme organization. As a result, the TERF run group is nowhere to be found, as CTFD is the one with access to local play spaces and clubs.

(continues)

Leadership Reform

You make a group that does everything the TERF group does, but without the unnecessary hate. Yet the TERF group finds a way to persist. Now what?

A gradual strategy that can succeed is infiltration and replacement. Entryism is a century old non-violent tactic that works in any group that uses voting to determine leadership. Gather a group of like-minded allies, join the group, and then vote one another into key positions. Attract more via outreach and over time the group will be geared toward promoting social justice and human rights.

(continues)

With TERF groups, many will likely try to ban trans women from membership. This can be worked around. Cis women allies can easily enter a given organization. If they work as a collective, it’s a matter of figuring out the number needed to achieve a simple majority (or whatever number is needed to overrule attempts to stop the bloc). For example, if a collective has about 25 members, then a group as small as 30 could wrest control from the bigots.

Then, when it comes time to select leaders, remove the old bigoted guard and install rational leadership. Done correctly, this is a wonderful bloodless democratic coup. It’s enabled since TERF’s are a tiny — if loud — minority of all women. Finding women willing to help replace their hate with love and inclusiveness is therefore not an impossible task.

This tactic is especially sound when trying to take over a group that has resources and performs functions that are important to the broader community, but happen to be biased against women. For example, discriminatory rape crisis centers on one hand perform an important function for the segment of women they do serve, even as they impose misogynist exclusionary definitions of who they’ll treat. Maintaining continuity for the delivery of this kind of service is important — no one wins if they’re shut down or disappear. A gradual internal take over simply allows the organization to stop being a hate group while still caring for women in need.

(continues)

Notify contacts if a TERF has snuck onto their friends list. I’ve personally caught a couple TERF’s trying to worm their way into feminist groups and gotten them banned. Report their blogs to WordPress and others to try and get them taken down. You may not shut down every TERF account you see, but every one that is suspended is a victory. Likewise, the more you can promote the isolation and containment of TERF’s on social media by denying them the ability to associate with moderate feminist elements, the weaker their influence on the community will be.

Regular readers of this forum will appreciate that this increased inclusion comes at the expense of excluding women who cannot heal in a space with any kind of male.

We are now in the situation where I have read of multiple women on mumsnet being unable to access refuges because of the males in them. Is this a universal issue? No- I can name shelters that remain women-only! (And I donate to them!) Do the female-only shelters have capacity to cover the whole UK? Also no!

As it happens, I myself spent a couple of years in a female-only housing as a teenager. That shelter no longer exists, and it makes me sick to think that this generation of girls don't have recourse to it.

I am not going to argue about whether PP would be the best woman out of all the women in the world for this. Nor will I donate more than I can afford. But I will donate, and hope that it leads to a woman being able to LTB where otherwise she would not have. If my tenner is wasted, so be it. As said, I only donate what I can afford.

We can argue all day about who would be the perfect founder of a new refuge, but someone has to actually do it. Looks like she might. I've been here for over ten years and I have a good feeling that I disagree with her on all kinds of things. But screw feminist purity tests and whether she might score lower than me! What use would it be to fundraising efforts if I have read more feminist literature than she has, when I have all the charisma and articulacy of Matt Hancock after he's fallen into the river Thames, eh?

Now, Posie Parker does have charisma so she could do this! I am guessing that she isn't planning to staff it 24/7 by herself, so presumably she's going to be partnering with women in the sector already.

Datun · 28/05/2021 02:11

@howtocomplain

It's not my impression that Posie is motivated by vanity. I've never seen that. She's motivated by passion for protecting women and girls.

Datun, I have utmost respect for you, but this is a rare occasion where I disagree with you. We all want sound, wise leaders. Posie is not that person. Good at making a stir, yes. Egoless? Hardly.

howtocomplain

I skimmed the video, I'll have another look tomorrow In case I've missed something. And it's fine if we disagree!

No, of course she is not without ego. She couldn't possibly do this without an ego, without high self-esteem, and without the thickest skin imaginable. But I think that's different to vanity. And doing it out of vanity.

She made an impassioned video once about women everywhere standing up simultaneously, making a stand. About how if we all did it at once, things would change overnight. And of course she is right, and of course we can't all do that.

She has since said that she realises she is in a fortunate position where she can do these things.

And not just in that position. It's her natural MO. She went to America. She and Julia Long confronted that transwoman. She put up the billboards. Bested Harrop on national tv. She has taken over speakers corner. She's been arrested.

Posie's strength is that she aims her arrow straight at the bull's-eye and lets go.

There is a woman who posts on here called Detroit, who would rather be homeless, and starving, than go to a woman's shelter where she lives, because they all take transwomen. And she can't cope with it. She has gone over state line, after state line, and there is literally nowhere for her to go. One by one, the shelters have capitulated. (And yes, I realise why.)

Posie's not reinventing the wheel. The wheel has fallen off the cart, rolled down the hill and is lying at the bottom of the lake, covered in mud.

She's just going to get it and nail it back on the cart.

NiceGerbil · 28/05/2021 03:20

Those who are saying donate to existing women only services maybe haven't been following the news etc.

The first point is that the refuges set up by women in the past have over the years become reliant on funding from councils etc. If the council withdraws the funding it's game over.

And in 2 or 3 areas the council's have withdrawn funding from the places that have been there for decades for women. And handed the cash over to large orgs with no experience in the sector who are cheap.

They want services that offer services to men as well. Not any woman based on gender- men.

Ok tbf putting money their way would be good but where and who are they? And how do you find out? Most women only things mean self id now even if they're not open about it.

Of course women who have a local female only service can and should support them but I think many have folded to keep the funding ages ago, or are closing.

Also they will be heavily targeted because of their single sex nature- something they never signed up for.

Also. Final point. Women can do with their money as they wish. And in the end they will.

MiladyBerserko · 28/05/2021 04:41

Yey for Posie. She knows how to get things done. A bit agog at the criticism of her for trying. I think she isn't the 'right kind' of woman, to some women who act like Head Girls.

howtocomplain · 28/05/2021 06:04

@NiceGerbil

Those who are saying donate to existing women only services maybe haven't been following the news etc.

The first point is that the refuges set up by women in the past have over the years become reliant on funding from councils etc. If the council withdraws the funding it's game over.

And in 2 or 3 areas the council's have withdrawn funding from the places that have been there for decades for women. And handed the cash over to large orgs with no experience in the sector who are cheap.

They want services that offer services to men as well. Not any woman based on gender- men.

Ok tbf putting money their way would be good but where and who are they? And how do you find out? Most women only things mean self id now even if they're not open about it.

Of course women who have a local female only service can and should support them but I think many have folded to keep the funding ages ago, or are closing.

Also they will be heavily targeted because of their single sex nature- something they never signed up for.

Also. Final point. Women can do with their money as they wish. And in the end they will.

Yes, I have been following the news and I know several women working across the sector.

Posie knows exactly how to find them, should she want to, she would need to ask the actual feminists she knows. But it would involve collaboration with other women.

Yes, council funding being withdrawn is a huge issue. In Brighton, which was in the news recently, the contract was worth £5million over 7 years.

Yes, handing refuges over to people with no experience is a bad idea. Posie, to my knowledge, has no experience in working with women who have experienced trauma and abuse.

Yes, people can do with their money what they wish, but we're talking about supporting extremely vulnerable women who deserve specialist support from women who know what they're doing. If Posie doesn't get expert help with this, she will be putting those women at risk, potentially and so I'm not going to sit back and watch and say nothing.

She's already said she hopes to be able to buy somewhere. How is she going to manage that secretly? The whereabouts of the refuge needs to be an absolute secret or it's worse than useless. She can't just announce she's going to buy somewhere and then do it in a normal way, what about land registry records? I'm sure there's a way round this, but the answer is talking to women in the sector about what is actually needed, not starting from scratch and making mistakes. Mistakes, here, could mean the loss of life of women and children. This is not a joke.

Like I said, I would love to be proved wrong, but unless Posie gets some women on board who know what they are doing, this makes no sense.

Doesn't matter how much she wants to help women, if she thinks she can just charge into the women's sector and do this without expert help she's going to cause damage. The road to hell...

howtocomplain · 28/05/2021 06:08

@MiladyBerserko

Yey for Posie. She knows how to get things done. A bit agog at the criticism of her for trying. I think she isn't the 'right kind' of woman, to some women who act like Head Girls.
Jesus, grow up, will you?

It has nothing to do with Posie being the wrong sort of woman or any nonsense about head girls, and everything to do with knowing a bit about the women's sector.

Plus having observed at close hand how Posie is terrible at collaboration with other feminists, it's really not her thing.

If you give a shit about the women involved, then you should listen to criticism, doesn't mean you have to agree with me, but at least consider what I'm saying, don't hand wave it away with nonsense about head girls, FFS.

Siablue · 28/05/2021 07:09

While I think this is a good idea I think it would be good to focus the funding on refuges that are at risk which are well established but at risk of losing funding. There are more than two.

If there was a central pot of funds that we could donate to that would go to women’s services across the country that would make the sector much safer and less dependent on council funding which asked them to also cater to men.

NecessaryScene1 · 28/05/2021 07:25

Her ignorance & ego is dangerous. What a shame.

As opposed to the males being permitted to run such places in Scotland?

Like I said, I would love to be proved wrong, but unless Posie gets some women on board who know what they are doing, this makes no sense.

Right... So what's the best way to get some women on board who know what they're doing? Announce that you're going to try to get some new female-only shelters together!

Either there are a huge number of experienced women involved in the field that know there's a problem that will respond to such a call, or they're all quite happy where they are, in which case there's presumably no problem.

Posie is doing what Posie does. Organising. She could be the catalyst to get people together to make something. Someone's got to do it. No-one on this thread is.

Tibtom · 28/05/2021 07:39

As far as rsisung money for the two that are left: yes that would be good but do you honestly think 2 refuges in the whole of the uk is enough?

Why do you think Posie intends to run a refuge single handed? She has a family to look after and a broader campaign to run. Of course she is going to recruit and of course she will look for experience when she does so. But do you not think lives are already being lost by the lack of female refuges?

howtocomplain · 28/05/2021 07:43

do you honestly think 2 refuges in the whole of the uk is enough?

It's not just 2 refuges, that's nonsense.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/05/2021 07:51

This always happens with Posie threads. A few posters dominate the thread with their tales of how awful/unsuitable Posie is.

As a woman who was involved in setting up a women's centre back in the 70s, from fundraising, finding premises, literally painting rooms, training and establishing a functioning and legally constituted organisation run by women, for women I'm pleased to see a woman doing this again.
We knew (back in the day) when we finally accepted local authority funding that we would sacrifice levels of independence. Little did we realise that we'd eventually have to sacrifice the very essence of single sex provision.
Good for Posie. We did it before and I have no doubt women can do it again.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 28/05/2021 07:54

I imagine part of the problem is that given all bar 2 ‘women’s’ refuges are open to men as well, any staff from those refuges being seen to work with Posie would come under instant mass attack ditto any CEO of any women’s organisation (that’s if that organisation hasn’t already been captured and rambling on about being for “anyone who identifies as a woman” ) any woman in the sector who worked with posie would effectively be ostracised and possibly lose their job, that’s asking a lot of ppl! As PP has said before, she on the other hand has nothing to lose....

ANewDawnANewDay · 28/05/2021 08:00

Having seen the way Posie works, I would gladly chip in. BUT I do so with no expectations. She will stir up the pot but no idea whether she will be able to get something up and running. And that's ok. It's more than I will ever do.

Meanwhile I also chip in for others that I know of. We need more not less.

BaronessWrongCrowd · 28/05/2021 08:08

Good for Posie. I know that she will ignore the naysayers. She may be marmite to some but at least she has ovaries of steel and put her money where her mouth is.

Instead of saying why she can’t do something, perhaps her doubters could be positive and support her in this endeavour.

Moondust001 · 28/05/2021 08:10

She isn't putting her money where her mouth is. She is putting everyone else's money where her mouth is. That is a very different thing.

PegasusReturns · 28/05/2021 08:15

And “stirring the pot” in itself brings benefits. If 20, 200 or 2000 people learn that refuges are not - and in most cases cannot be - single sex then that in itself is a success.

Tibtom · 28/05/2021 08:23

She will stir up the pot

This. People have been complacent. Where are all these 'experts' now? Either captured, cowed or believing Stonewall's lies. If someone does stir the pot it enables people to step back and think 'hang on! How did it happen that all the female refuges got removed?'

I think that might be want some posters are worried about. It throws sunlight on what is happening.

OhHolyJesus · 28/05/2021 08:30

@Moondust001

She isn't putting her money where her mouth is. She is putting everyone else's money where her mouth is. That is a very different thing.
Money that they willingly give to her, for this purpose, makes it hers.

The half a million raise by Reclaim These Streets gave it to Rosa, a trans-inclusive women's poverty charity. Those donating didn't give their consent to that but they donated to the crowdfunder in the belief it would do good things for women, not men. It's just that the RTS definition of women included men. Some who donated got their donations refunded so I don't know the final figure given to Rosa but no one is going to face any consequences of what I consider to be a fraudulent extraction of funds from people trying to do a good thing, specifically for women.

At the very least, the very minimum we can expect from Posie is money given to her will benefit women.

JoodyBlue · 28/05/2021 08:35

She often says feminism left her because feminists would not allow her to articulate clearly what a woman is. As for not collaborating, she obviously does collaborate with Venice, with Julia Long, with Sheila Jeffries, with many other people who will not slate her for telling the truth as she sees it.

That truth is uncomfortable for many. But this is the point. We should be able to hold uncomfortable truths and disagree with each other in a democracy and we cannot.

She continually calls out women who are standing for the same cause who undermine each other. Sadly @howtocomplain it feels like this is what you are doing.

I think, on past evidence, she would be quite likely to take advice, counsel, and collaboration with women who work in this sector. Maybe contact her to find out?

AyeRobot · 28/05/2021 08:45

Huh? I don't get the naysayers - it was the bloody experts who let the men in! If they'd said "sorry, this is a service for women who have specific needs , but we'll share our knowledge of how to go setting up your own provision", then Posie wouldn't be doing this. In fact, I would suggest that if the providers of services for women had said no, then Posie probably wouldn't have done very much at all about any of this.

I suspect that this is classic Posie & her aim is to get the existing providers to step up to the damn plate. Good for her.

PatsArrow · 28/05/2021 08:46

Well I've donated.

Posie said weeks ago when she first mentioned this that she has a women helping her/with her who know what they're doing and have done similar before. I know more than that.

So Posie opens a new female only shelter? You know she's not going to be physically doing ALL of it on her own? She might be fierce and 'not a team player' but she's not stupid.

I don't think Posie is the messiah and she's not the ONLY woman who cares about this stuff by any means, but like her or not she's an agitator, able to get things noticed and talked about. People are talking about and supporting her (and therefore this fight for women) all over the world!! I'm sorry but no-one else is quite doing that in the same way.

I'm really interested in this fight, but even I don't have time to investigate every small charity or feminist trying to get people to listen about this subject.
I do not apologise for supporting Posie.

I support most crowdfounders and petitions too. One more female only shelter (particularly in Leeds where's she's perhaps thinking about) is only a good thing.

Congressdingo · 28/05/2021 08:47

@Moondust001

She isn't putting her money where her mouth is. She is putting everyone else's money where her mouth is. That is a very different thing.
Then dont give your money? It's as simple as that.