Mixed feelings young "transmen" cutting themselves off from womanhood

[howtocomplain]

I just caught up with an old friend, and it turns out her 19 year old DD is identifying as a man. I saw several pictures of her child, who is using a male male and he/him or they/them pronouns, but still wearing a lot of feminine clothes and still wears makeup. All that seems to have changed since they came out, is this young person has died their hair bright colours and is dressing more alternative / punkish.

This young person is in a relationship with a young (biological) man and they say that they're gay.

On the one hand I recognise young people like to push boundaries and experiment, but on the other hand I feel there's something really sinister about society encouraging young women to cut themselves off from feminism and sisterhood by denying they're even female.

And I must admit I'm not happy with the idea of them calling themselves a gay couple, I feel it's a fucking insult to actual gay people and a trivialisation of what so many gay people have endured. These two are never going to be subjected to homophobic abuse or have to deal with discrimination for being gay, are they, as they plainly look like a heterosexual couple.

I don't know if this young person is taking hormones. I hope not.

I'd be more worried about contraception

Contraception? Why? I would imagine they know how to use contraception by 19!

I think the PP was making a wry joke. If they consider themselves a gay couple there would be no need for contraception right?

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

@hoodwatch

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

It kind of does though...

I don't think pushing young women to feel a strong sense of 'sisterhood' makes it less likely that they will identify as men. It can take a long time for women to find their place in the world, they have to find their own selves first.

I agree entirely that this isn't a gay couple and it's fairly insulting to gay men who've suffered in the past to call themselves that. I guess we should be glad that they don't have any real concept of what homophobia used to be like.

@hoodwatch

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

If they are both male, then they don't need contraception.

So are they both male?

@hoodwatch

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

So when they get pregnant, which one of them will be the one gestating and giving birth to the baby? The female man, or the male man?

Just had a thought. I'm a woman in a relationship with a woman, so we're lesbians. We don't use contraception. But if I identify as male we could be a straight couple and I presume I could I get my partner pregnant? Do I need to use a condom? How would I use a condom when I don't have a penis?

Yeah it’s this kind of identification which denies what real homophobia means, denies what real sexism means. Coasts along on ignorance and solipsism.

It’s narcissistic and ultimately fuels patriarchal stereotypes.

Well I mean they're only young so you know whatever live and let live.

The situation in general though is the sort of thing that makes loads of ordinary people go FFS.

And this also is the sort of thing I think, don't you know how much you're tbh messing with people who will want to be nice but...

It's a young woman who wears clothes usual for women. And makeup. But has a male name and he his.

So... In general when out and about if someone says she/ her etc. Then they are being misgendered. But. What's the reaction? How is anyone to know?

I know this happens but I can't believe it actually happens iyswim. Why would you do that? I mean unless you don't mind in general and just ask it if family. But even then it's a headfuck.

So they are a femme/ cross dressing man.

Yes of course it is two fingers to gay men.

I'm really surprised though. I mean.

How does it work irl when out and about?

Are they going to gay bars etc? Or anything.

Or is it a sort of. Not really about the outside world but just between them in which case well I mean so what really.

Hoodwatch why not pop over to some spaces on the net where gay men hang out and see what they make of it eh?

Ask them how they would feel about female people in dresses and makeup coming to their bars and clubs with their boyfriends and expecting to be treated as a cross dressing man.

In fact how they feel about any female people (apart from the occasional one who is accepted for whatever reason) in their spaces. Cruising Hampstead men's pond. Joining a gay gym. Coming to a gay club with a few of their cross dressing transmen friends.

Go on. Ask them. Interested to hear the response you get.

I find this truly appalling tbh.

I used to go to a couple of gay clubs years ago. With lesbian friends. Who had a separate dancefloor bar etc.

Do you have ANY IDEA how many women love gay clubs? How much effort they went to, to keep it gay and lesbian?

Loads of women want to go to gay clubs because they can dance and have fun and not have creepy men all over the place.

If they can go they will.

And who follows?! Straight men. That's who.

And then the club is fucked.

It is so utterly disrespectful to the men who set all this up.

The utter lack of any modicum of respect for the L or the G or the B is. It makes me so angry.

Really angry. Well done trans warriors. You've opened up all those hard fought for places. Places where homosexual people could relax and be themselves and have a good time. To anyone.

Well done.

Go and ask them. Go on.

Sorry for multiple posts I'm fuming.

In the end the aim is to open up all the spaces carved out for women, girls, gay men, lesbians and bisexual people. Taking loads of time and effort etc.

To anyone. Everyone. The whole of mainstream society. Destroying all of it.

Pride is already gone. Corporatised. Sparkle party.

My friend went when you could get kicked in and lose your job for it. He said it was always about protest. He hates what it is now.

Can you even see what you're doing? Or is that the point.

Women and LGB people have all this stuff. Not everyone is welcome. That's not fair! Let me in!

And then the very thing that was so interesting to join is destroyed.

I agree with this:
Yeah it’s this kind of identification which denies what real homophobia means, denies what real sexism means. Coasts along on ignorance and solipsism.

It’s narcissistic and ultimately fuels patriarchal stereotypes.

Fine to create your own words for your own thing when you’re young but don’t piggyback appropriatively on to other peoples hard won battles for recognition, this is in absolutely no way a gay male couple.

NiceGerbil I agree with you. It’s awful the takeover of lesbian spaces, where do the younger lesbians have to go now that’s safe and fun and away from creepy men (however the creepy men identify their gender)? Where can they go thats actually women-only? They have nowhere.

I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp

You are the second smug poster so say something like that today. So sad. You think you are so cool and down with the kids but you really aren't and will have to find another fashion to cling on to as this one is going the way of the emo, but leaving a lot more damage in its wake.

@hoodwatch

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

Stephonknee Wolscht lived as a 52-year-old man before coming out as trans and began identifying as a six-year-old girl:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/world/transgender-father-stefonknee-wolscht-leaves-family-to-live-as-a-sixyearold-girl-a3142551.html%3famp

Please could I just check, hoodwatch that you support Stephonknee's identity as both a transgender and transage person? Do you agree that as Stephonknee identifies as a six-year-old girl, Stephonknee should be treated as any other six-year-old girl and be welcomed into age-restricted areas without checks, such as school and Rainbows, and be entitled to share a bedroom with the daughter of Stephonknee's adoptive family?

In other words, identity trumps all?

Or should we only accept Stephonknee as transgender, not transage? So female-only spaces are suitable for Stephonknee - such as swimming pool changing rooms - but not age-restricted spaces?

I find people don't tend to answer my questions on Stephonknee, hoodwatch, but I expect you will.

OP, I agree, I feel very sad when I hear about transmen. It is so anti-feminist. I hope your friend doesn't take any hormones - everything else is reversible, but once your friend's voice breaks, that will never change.

@Shedbuilder - absolutely. How could you be so irresponsible to not use condoms to protect against pregnancy if you become heterosexual by identifying as a trans man. Your potential carelessness astounds me.......

if they both identify as male then they are gay.

Biological male in relationship with biological female = heterosexual

I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp.

People who buy into gender ideology are generally confused I find.

Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

Why would someone who doesn't identify with womanhood consider themselves to be a feminist?

I don't understand how they can be gay - genuinely. Homosexuality is about being attracted to the same sex - nothing to do with gender. They are a heterosexual couple or maybe pan-sexual but they are definitely not gay

Free to be till she gets pregnant and learns how sexist the world still is.

@hoodwatch

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

Lots of people in society have homophobic views, still, in 2021. Reading testimonies such as this one should help people to educate themselves and do better: grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/its-not-just-about-the-right-person

Acid test for this gay couple: if they visit Iran, will they be in danger of the death penalty?

Nope. I am all for young people exploring their sexuality with all the vim and vigour that I wish I still had, in any consenting permutation that they see fit, but it is disrespectful at best, homophobic at worst, to describe a heterosexual pairing as gay. Queer, sure, as that covers just about anything you please, but not gay. This is another form of “I don’t see colour”, isn’t it? How is it different?