Mixed feelings young "transmen" cutting themselves off from womanhood

[howtocomplain]

I just caught up with an old friend, and it turns out her 19 year old DD is identifying as a man. I saw several pictures of her child, who is using a male male and he/him or they/them pronouns, but still wearing a lot of feminine clothes and still wears makeup. All that seems to have changed since they came out, is this young person has died their hair bright colours and is dressing more alternative / punkish.

This young person is in a relationship with a young (biological) man and they say that they're gay.

On the one hand I recognise young people like to push boundaries and experiment, but on the other hand I feel there's something really sinister about society encouraging young women to cut themselves off from feminism and sisterhood by denying they're even female.

And I must admit I'm not happy with the idea of them calling themselves a gay couple, I feel it's a fucking insult to actual gay people and a trivialisation of what so many gay people have endured. These two are never going to be subjected to homophobic abuse or have to deal with discrimination for being gay, are they, as they plainly look like a heterosexual couple.

I don't know if this young person is taking hormones. I hope not.

I just caught up with an old friend, and it turns out her 19 year old DD is identifying as a man.

OP, your friends DD will still experience discrimination as a transman. Transmen get no where near the funding or attention of Transwomen and "tend to get deployed when they are pregnant or when it is easier to argue against the, sex based, rights of biological women." then there are transmen survivors of coercion and abuse in youth groups, following the orders of males, like Benji.

That quote was from Tish
gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2021/04/22/arcus-foundation-grants/

My sisters child is like this.
It went
Gay female
Trans man(including top surgery)
Gay man.

Whatever, it's their life.

Although there's very few actual gay men that would accept a transman as gay / a potential partner.

Yes to everything you've said, Nice Gerbil. So sad that lesbians and having to meet and dance in secret in order to get away from straight men taking the piss. I miss those old clubs, away from the male gaze.

Strange that so many here think they have a right to define other people's sexuality.

You're not attracted to trans people. Fine. Nobody cares.

But you don't have a right to define other people's sexuality. It's frankly gross that the current "GC" movement is so focussed on telling Gay Men that they are bisexual if they are attracted to trans men. And telling Lesbians that they're bisexual if they are attracted to trans women.

Not your place. Especially as heterosexuals - who seem to be the loudest voices on this subject.

So you directly refute the post right before yours, and see shed's post about missing lesbian clubs as her defining other people's sexuality.

Even as you are comfortable with her sexuality being redefined and those lesbian spaces being stuffed full of males.

Very progressive well done.

And I mean it's not as if lesbians haven't been harassed pursued etc by blokes for ages so there definitely wouldn't be any straight blokes crashing their clubs and other spaces.

How the hell anyone can think of themselves as morally superior by throwing open the doors to everyone is beyond me but hey. Great job, keep at it!

I find comments from some transmen are aggressive and dismissive towards women in the tradition of some of the worst sexist men. Its as though they feel such contempt for women they will go to extreme lengths to deny they are one.

I find it sad frankly.

@SpiderinaWingMirror

My sisters child is like this. It went Gay female Trans man(including top surgery) Gay man.

Whatever, it's their life.

This is the root of it I think.

It's the end game of individualism.

I want to do this or that and why shouldn't I. It's none of anyone elses business.

The fact that gay men will not like female people in dresses and makeup expecting to be able to go along to all the stuff for gay men, but they will have to treat them no differently to a cross dressing male... Doesn't affect them?

I can't get to grips with that at all.

It's just totally arrogant.

But you don't have a right to define other people's sexuality.

I do, however, have a right to use words to mean stuff. A transman (biological female) and a natal man (biological male) cannot be a homosexual couple since they are not same-sex. Posturing, self- obsessed nonsense.

yeahbutnaw

Strange that so many here think they have a right to define other people's sexuality.

So what is your opinion on biological women, who identify as men, telling gay men they should be attracted to them?

So what is your opinion on biological women, who identify as men, and who tell any straight men who find them attractive that they (the men) must be gay or bisexual?

That was a general point about your comment spider not about your specific relative who obviously I don't know.

The idea that none of this affects anyone else is not at all true.

Some people may well not mind. But some will. And the principle remains.

Appropriation of oppression. They are privileged enough to be able to claim to be the most oppressed.

I tell you I’m vegan.

You see me enjoying a bacon sandwich.

You point out that this makes me not be a vegan.

If my employment protections are set up to protect vegans, but in fact are used to defend my bacon sandwich eating, do they continue to be of use to vegans who do not eat bacon sandwiches?

If the bacon sandwich eating vegan berates the people who suppose themselves to be vegans and urges them to stop “defining other people’s veganism”, do you think they have a point?

Agreeing that words have meanings isn’t some sort of fundamentalism, and it’s a bit odd to act as if “defining” something is an act of oppression.

@hoodwatch

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

No they bloody well aren't. Gay is same sex attraction and no matter how much people spin this biological sex cannot be changed and that there is fact. I am lesbian, attracted to females and the female body. A man presenting as a woman would not be attractive to me in any shape or form as i am attracted to the female body, it's same sex attraction not whatever gender someone identifies as.

Shedbuilder

I'm sorry! I just can't seem to remember that logic is forbidden.

There was an interesting point relating to this made in a great Ovarit thread on the 'Fandom to Trans pipeline': "When I started reading yaoi and fanfic at the age of 13, the uke/seme dynamic was popular, but I've been in a lot of fandoms since and it seems to have fallen out of fashion. I've seen people get bullied on tumblr for girlifying male characters, or fetishizing gay relationships. Which is one of the reasons why I believe a lot of fangirls are suddenly trans now, they want to get away with fetishizing homosexuality without getting called homophobes."

We saw a high-profile version of this recently when a certain bee-obsessed and hitherto apparently heterosexual celeb 'came out' as 'queer' after a backlash for accepting a job presenting a a drag show.

Strange that so many here think they have a right to define other people's sexuality.

Dictionary definitions help with that. I have the right to use dictionary definitions to describe the things I see. There is no obligation for me to use made up meanings to please other people.

You're not attracted to trans people. Fine. Nobody cares.

Not relevent.

But you don't have a right to define other people's sexuality.

It's not defining other people's sexuality. People decide for themselves if they are gay or straight. The words from the dictionary then help describe that. So if someone is a lesbian they are same SEX attracted. A gay man is same SEX attracted. A heterosexual man or woman is OPPOSITE sex attracted. A bi sexual person can be same SEX or opposite SEX attracted. It's pretty simple really. Especially with the use of a dictionary.

It's frankly gross that the current "GC" movement is so focussed on telling Gay Men that they are bisexual if they are attracted to trans men.

The dictionary is your friend. Men are biological males. Transmen are biological females. Thus, a transman in a relationship with a biological male = heterosexual relationship. If the transman is attracted also to other biological women, they may consider themselves to be Bi. Same for biological males also attracted to other biological males.

And telling Lesbians that they're bisexual if they are attracted to trans women.

And again. Lesbians are biological women. Transwomen are biological males. A relationship between the two is a heterosexual relationship. However if the lesbian is also attracted to other women she may be bi. Same for the transwoman if they are also attracted to other biological males.

Not your place. Especially as heterosexuals - who seem to be the loudest voices on this subject

Not your place to define the above dictionary definitions to suit your own agenda.

@yeahbutnaw

Strange that so many here think they have a right to define other people's sexuality.

You're not attracted to trans people. Fine. Nobody cares.

But you don't have a right to define other people's sexuality. It's frankly gross that the current "GC" movement is so focussed on telling Gay Men that they are bisexual if they are attracted to trans men. And telling Lesbians that they're bisexual if they are attracted to trans women.

Not your place. Especially as heterosexuals - who seem to be the loudest voices on this subject.

Hetrosexuals? Excuse me?

I think you need to examine your prejudices. On what basis do you think all the women reading this thread are hetrosexual?

Is it because you think mumsnet =mums=hetrosexual women? You need to have a word with yourself.

Why are you ignoring the poster who's said she's a lesbian, on this very thread? Or the many, many lesbians campaigning on this subject. And the LGB Alliance?

Also, what you're missing is that if the concepts of sex and sexuality are redefined for everyone, it impacts everyone.

Curious what yeahbutnaw thinks about this.

Relevant extracts for those using screenreaders.

This is Stonewall's description of the current legal landscape.

SEX BY DECEPTION
Recent ‘sex by deception’ cases involving trans people and gender identity issues have revealed an alarming lack of clarity around trans people’s rights and obligations to disclose or not disclose their trans history to their sexual partners.
These cases demonstrate that it is possible for non-disclosure of a person’s trans status to impair the validity of consent.
This leaves a great many trans individuals at risk of prosecution for a criminal offence. It is, however, still unclear as to whether the courts regard this to be the case for a trans person who has undergone medical transition, and it is further greyed by whether or not an individual can be defined as trans, based on their appearance, by the court. Clarity is urgently needed."

This is from Stonewall's Response, setting out their objectives.

SEX BY DECEPTION
Stonewall will support calls for a judicial review to clarify prosecution policy and guidance, and amend it where necessary with due regard to the trans person’s right to privacy.

t.co/tI3gGpbmQb?amp=1

If other people tell you that your 'progressive' movement is driving human rights backwards then it is your responsibility to stop and listen.

The dominant group erasing the oppressed and endangered group is the definition of cultural genocide. Its not progressive and its not kind.

There are legal definitions for 'man', 'women', 'gay' and 'lesbian'. If you aren't aware of why they were needed in the first place then count yourself lucky.

Just had a thought. I'm a woman in a relationship with a woman, so we're lesbians. We don't use contraception. But if I identify as male we could be a straight couple and I presume I could I get my partner pregnant? Do I need to use a condom? How would I use a condom when I don't have a penis?

No problem Shedbuilder

You could just pretend that you are using a condom, and that’s why she isn’t getting pregnant. That would work.

It would work even better if you were to go to the pharmacy and buy some condoms. If you wanted to save money, you could buy re-useable ones.

Even cheaper, you could just pretend she’s on the pill.

And cheaper still, you could pretend that although you identify as a man you are actually both women, so she can’t actually get pregnant.

So you directly refute the post right before yours, and see shed's post about missing lesbian clubs as her defining other people's sexuality.

It's almost as if yeahbutnaw is just another old-fashioned homophobic misogynist.

yeahbutnaw: how dare you, how fucking dare you, minimise the suffering and oppression that so many gay men and women have experienced over the centuries by pretending that a heterosexual couple can define themselves as gay? Utterly vile.