Mixed feelings young "transmen" cutting themselves off from womanhood

[howtocomplain]

I just caught up with an old friend, and it turns out her 19 year old DD is identifying as a man. I saw several pictures of her child, who is using a male male and he/him or they/them pronouns, but still wearing a lot of feminine clothes and still wears makeup. All that seems to have changed since they came out, is this young person has died their hair bright colours and is dressing more alternative / punkish.

This young person is in a relationship with a young (biological) man and they say that they're gay.

On the one hand I recognise young people like to push boundaries and experiment, but on the other hand I feel there's something really sinister about society encouraging young women to cut themselves off from feminism and sisterhood by denying they're even female.

And I must admit I'm not happy with the idea of them calling themselves a gay couple, I feel it's a fucking insult to actual gay people and a trivialisation of what so many gay people have endured. These two are never going to be subjected to homophobic abuse or have to deal with discrimination for being gay, are they, as they plainly look like a heterosexual couple.

I don't know if this young person is taking hormones. I hope not.

They aren't cutting themselves off from womanhood. Only women can be transmen so it is simply a rather extreme version of womanhood. Everything about being a transman reflects the fact that they are a woman.

Not your place. Especially as heterosexuals - who seem to be the loudest voices on this subject.

Funny you should say that, because as an actual lesbian, (an adult human female sexually oriented exclusively towards other adult human females), I am personally outraged by the army of heterosexual males who think their subjective gender identity entitles them to invade lesbian space denouncing lesbians for being same sex orientated.

The name for people who are attracted to others regardless of their gender identity is PANSEXUAL. It is not bisexual, lesbian or gay. Please recognise your own homophobia and try to do better in future.

@AtrociousCircumstance

Yeah it’s this kind of identification which denies what real homophobia means, denies what real sexism means. Coasts along on ignorance and solipsism.

It’s narcissistic and ultimately fuels patriarchal stereotypes.

Agree. I find it incredibly offensive for a heterosexual couple to call themselves gay. I hope they are embarrassed by this when they grow older.

In reference to the deployment of transmen during pregnancy. I remember a newspaper article about a man becoming pregnant. Told OH there was a man having a baby. Read a little on where it said that the supposed pregnant man had been born female.

'So not a man becoming pregnant', said my OH.

OH has a science background, so doesn't get confused as easily as some other people about these sort of things.

@Tibtom

They aren't cutting themselves off from womanhood. Only women can be transmen so it is simply a rather extreme version of womanhood. Everything about being a transman reflects the fact that they are a woman.

I think they are, potentially.

A young non-binary woman I know, was reluctant to get help from a women's project when she was made homeless with her young daughter, as she said she found it difficult to identify as a woman to get that help.

She had lots of trauma in her past and I think identifying out of womanhood was her way of coping with that.

But that means women who have experienced discrimination or abuse because of being women, are shutting themselves off from a feminist analysis and support from women who understand what they've endured from a female - and feminist - perspective.

This is what worries me about young women identifying out of womanhood. My friend's child, who looks very much like a young woman, is not going to be any less at risk of discrimination and sexual abuse from men because of a gender identity of "man". But this young person may find it hard to get help from people who understand the context of what happened if they are going to not approach services, help or advice aimed at women and run by feminist women.

And the answer isn't services aimed at everyone, as the whole point is about recognising how women are uniquely or disproportionately at risk of certain abuse and discrimination because we are women. Once you move to a non-specialised approach, this is lost.

Listen to on how important feminism and women's solidarity is in services for women.

I think I had a post removed for saying that if one of a couple is female they are not gay. Is that really against the guidelines here?

@aliasundercover

I think I had a post removed for saying that if one of a couple is female they are not gay. Is that really against the guidelines here?

It shouldn't be as thats the definition in the Equality Act.

'A young non-binary woman I know, was reluctant to get help from a women's project when she was made homeless with her young daughter, as she said she found it difficult to identify as a woman to get that help.'

But I don't get that. If she turned up with her kid they're not going to subject her to gender scrutiny.

It's for women of the old type- humans with women's bodies. Any and all sorts of people with female bodies will be there. Many of whom won't have given a thought to gender issues.

I have children. They were young. Babies.

I assume you don't mean rough sleeping? I've done that for one night not by choice and it was scary. I have friends male and female who have slept rough for longer.

Anyway. Not the point.

She was sofa surfing or similar I suppose?

I find it really. Well tbh I can't understand at all. Why someone would find going for that help almost not doable, when there's a young child to think of.

And as you say, there's no solution. You can't have things for what 5 or more genders.

As it is in I think 3 councils women's refuges that have been there for decades have lost funding as they don't support men (but do signpost them).

Different groups have different challenges and needs. This is about money saving. Providing these services is a statutory duty. They have to but they don't necessarily want to. So it all gets rolled into one which I suspect will not help anyone.

What did your friend do in the end? You say you knew her, were you close enough to support her? Did you allay her fears?

She told you that she felt uncomfortable being in somewhere with women in the name, even with a young child and homeless. How is she now? I'd do anything to keep my children safe tbh. Her reaction seems... I can't understand it. Is she ok?

Did she say what she would have preferred?

OP I don't understand at all how a female person who is non binary, and who has a young daughter with them, wouldn't take any help possible?

I can't understand why the non binary identity meant they were reluctant to access help if not for them but their daughter?

I'd put myself up for incarceration with anyone, anywhere if it meant my girls would be ok. I know that sounds overblown but I would.

Did they tell you what they were worried about or what they would prefer?

Did they have other mental health issues? (I have had and so can empathise. No problems until pregnancy. After that, for years unfortunately. I was paranoid amongst other things. That's the only thing I can think of for your friend's behaviour tbh).

Your friends situation has really hit me for some reason so sorry for the questions.

It shouldn't be as thats the definition in the Equality Act.

My next post was deleted. It was a test as I used a three word phrase I hadn't realised was on the ban list.

My thesaurus gives these as suggested synonyms:
'Sensational', and:
'courageous'.

Did anybody else know we weren't allowed to say that anymore? Seems harsh.

Appropriation of oppression. They are privileged enough to be able to claim to be the most oppressed.

Two sentences that explain this succinctly.

TWs have male pheromones and transmen have female pheromones. The body chemistry doesn't lie.

I have an old friend who since adolescence has been a very proud feminist and gay woman. Very alternative, very social justice warrior but I've always thought of her as an intelligent, proud, happy gay woman.

Only now, pushing 30, she's changed her name, is taking testosterone and is preparing to have her breasts removed.

In all the time we have spent together, I have never once thought of my friend as a man, and her current identity seems to be at complete odds with the person she has become durung adulthood. I can't even think of any stereotypical "male" interests she has.

I just cannot comprehend how someone who has been at the forefront of women's rights, a tight friendship group and who has had steady relationships with women can suddenly denounce her status as a gay woman and claim to be a straight man.

If enough people pronounce that something is real, other people will blindly agree, despite the evidence of their own eyes. But the evidence remains bleakly apparent, and too many people won't play along for the farce to succeed.

Female is a permanent reproductive class. An observable, physiological state.
No more an identity than kidneys or lungs are.

If I say I'm lungless, if I identify as lungless, then I AM lungless and who are you to say otherwise? I can't associate myself with those people over there because they all 'identify' as having lungs and I'm not the same as them, my identity is different.

No.

How anyone 'identifies' is immaterial. Facts remain for us all to observe whether fools acknowledge them or not. You cannot demand the entire world treats living, breathing, organic, material reality as if it were an identity to be claimed or rejected.

Accept you have lungs, or don't. Accept you are female, or don't. The world continues to know the facts and daily, fewer and fewer people are inclined to play along.

But I don't get that. If she turned up with her kid they're not going to subject her to gender scrutiny.

No, it wasn't that at all. It was that she felt it was traumatic for her to identify as a woman. She wasn't ruling it out, but it was a last resort as it would be emotionally painful for her to do so. This was the first time I'd met anyone who felt like this and it was a real eye-opener for me how identifying out of womanhood could lead young women to deny themselves what they need.

Your friends situation has really hit me for some reason so sorry for the questions

No problem, it really hit me too.

She had a history of child sexual abuse and it seems to me that her rejection of womanhood was tied up in her trauma as a result of the historical abuse - an attempt to protect herself, in a way.

I think of her every time someone says non-binary people 'just want to attention seek' or 'be seen as special', and while that might be true for some (most?) male NB people, I think we need to be careful that there could be a lot more going on for women, that there are so many reasons to reject the stereotypes and abuse pushed on women, and gender identity offers hope on this score - which makes me desperately sad for girls and women choosing this route to try to deal with trauma as it's a false hope, of course.

And the tragedy of the situation is that a feminist analysis and sisterly support could have really helped my friend put both the abuse and the precarious housing situation in context. She could really do with some proper feminism in her life, in my opinion. But not only would she not have been interested at the time, if your view of the world is that anything about women doesn't apply to you, how can you understand feminist analysis as applied to your life?

I've been very frank with my secondary age child about gender ideology, but I've been careful to try to teach that I'm criticising the ideas, not the kids who ID as trans. I've told him he needs to be sensitive to other people's feelings and not just tell kids who say that they are trans that they're wrong or anything like that, because some of them will be IDing as trans in an attempt to help them deal with other issues: they could be using "trans" as a kind of crutch. And that if you just go to kick that crutch away without any other support, it's totally understandable if they fiercely try to protect their crutch as they're leaning on it.

I think the same goes for vulnerable adults too, especially young women.

I assume you don't mean rough sleeping? I've done that for one night not by choice and it was scary. I have friends male and female who have slept rough for longer.

Anyway. Not the point.

She was sofa surfing or similar I suppose?

I sincerely apologise, I didn't add the detail as I was trying to be brief, but I can see I've been too brief! I should have said, she was at risk of homelessness, she wasn't actually homeless, although she had sofa surfed before.

She'd been given her notice on her flat, had only a few weeks left and had exhausted all options she could think of for getting a new place, so was asking her friends for help and advice. Being a young mum (or, non binary person with a female body and child in tow) on benefits was proving a huge barrier, and it was the third time they'd had to move on in a year, due to circumstances beyond her control.

Friends did rally round. This was years ago and it's water under the bridge now. We lost contact but I do think of her from time to time and hope she's OK.

@Shedbuilder

Just had a thought. I'm a woman in a relationship with a woman, so we're lesbians. We don't use contraception. But if I identify as male we could be a straight couple and I presume I could I get my partner pregnant? Do I need to use a condom? How would I use a condom when I don't have a penis?

Stonewall need to get onto this. Support groups, outreach to primary schools. Force condom manufacturers to get their bloody act together. Scrap boring Covid payments and spend money on this !

Condoms are sooo transphobic

Women are raised thinking "its a man's world" now more than ever its not surprising they want to self id out of it

I used to tell everyone I was a man at that age.

It was a long time ago before any of this gender identity bolleaux was around and I am not entirely sure why I did it.

I think I was at an age where I had worked hard to get through school and to university, and had realised how much the way ahead was stacked up against me, and I just wanted to be treated with the same respect as a man would get.

None of the "you will have to work harder to prove yourself", "you will have to make a choice over career or babies because you can't have both" "you will not be strong enough" "it will be hard to compete against the men" "women do not make good leaders" "are you sure you want to do that" etc etc.

@hoodwatch

if they both identify as male then they are gay. I'm confused as to why that's so difficult to grasp. Also confused as to why you care so much. Trans or non-binary, if someone doesn't identify with "womanhood" it doesn't mean they can't still be a feminist

I don’t think any individual sentence in that makes sense, let alone the whole.

@hoodwatch

as i said, just say u are transgender and go. why do u care about other peoples genitals so much it's weird.

The only way your comment makes any sense is if you reduce people to their genitals, and surely that's not what you want to do?

The rest of us here know there's a lot more to a woman or a man than their genitals, if you understood that perhaps you'd be some way towards understanding our concerns.

HTH.