How to (re)approach Headteacher (re: trans ideology)?

[therestissilence]

Advice needed so that I can act effectively and carefully. Context: small independent primary school, Catholic but not exclusive.

Two years ago, I arranged a meeting with the Head, armed with some TransgenderTrend literature; I wanted to see what her attitudes were towards the trans trend. At the time there were no kids in the school who thought they were trans. As I was telling her what has been going on in many other schools - and in wider society - she looked a little bit like she thought I was crazy, and responded with the (perhaps) naive 'well we won't be having any of that nonsense in this school'. I left her with the literature, nevertheless.

Lo and behold, a year 5 girl has emerged from lockdown (too much time on the internet?) saying she's a boy. She has a new name, has ditched the school uniform (which is very 'gendered' in our school for both the boys and girls) and wears PE kit everyday. Other parents have said their daughters have been distressed because when they 'accidentally' refer to her as 'her', or 'she' , the girl turns on them and calls them transphobic. It must be so confusing for them. I am extremely heartened, however, to hear that the teachers are still referring to the girl correctly - and seem not to be over-indulging her.

However, if the Head starts seeking advice, she could end up getting advice from the wrong people (such as Stonewall, GOD FORBID).

Now that she knows I'm NOT crazy, how might I re-approach her, in order to nudge her in the right and sane direction? I'm asking because I've already raised this once, and don't want to come across as bullish by requesting a second meeting.

Thankfully, my own daughter is in Y1, so will have minimal exposure to the mind-fuckery going on in Y5. However, I think it is a critical time for the school; they are facing their first 'case' and no doubt policies are being formulated as I type.

Advice?

I think it’s worth contacting the school and governers or pta. As demonstrated here, some people have only thought about toilets and being ‘nice’ and won’t have thought about the knock on implications like dorms on overnight trips, sports, showers, single sex groups like lesbian groups or guides, hospital wards, requesting women Drs, women’s shortlists or women’s officers, jobs with accommodation like the army, patterns of offending etc. Not to mention the reliance on stereotypes and the thought gymnastics that have to be played by others in order to facilitate.

Please let’s not encourage vulnerable young females to go into male showers, dorms, sports and changing rooms. We can absolutely support this kid in getting a wide ranging education but this has to include facts, boundaries, safeguarding and getting on with other people.

Maybe you should respect the boy (or female sexual organ owning person if you prefer to go by what is in someone’s pants/under their shirt rather than who they are) in question and let them live their life?
Having worked in schools with trans kids most children actually don’t find it difficult at all to adjust to calling others by a different pronoun or name etc. Why is it your business if this child is trans and wants to live as a different gender?
“Well they might be forced in to it: it may be only a phase: peer pressure blah blah blah” - even so if it’s a phase etc there really is no harm and I actually doubt they are being forced if it continues in school. Plus if it’s a phase they won’t be taking any drugs yet so there really is no harm. What you should do is mind your own business and think how you would feel if that boy was you!

And as for those mentioning toilets: So most of you seem to think gender and sex are the same etc so a trans man is still a woman - so you are happy with someone who presents as totally masculine, has big muscles etc going in to women’s toilets because they are still a woman? Or thinking about the age of these kids someone who looks just like a boy and is unrecognisable as a girl (trust me at such young ages they don’t need surgery to look convincingly cosmetically the opposite sex) going in to the female toilets with all the girls?
Trust me kids don’t care at that age and with adults truly trans people just want to piss in peace.

Why is it your business if this child is trans and wants to live as a different gender?

How does a child 'live as a different gender'?

And as an add on to my last post: Sports etc can be supported. It’s difficult and an effort for the school but possible. Changing rooms etc can be discussed to help the safety of the child in question and their wishes. Some want to use the one appropriate to their gender, others to their biological sex. Most schools also have a disabled/unisex toilet and at mine trans kids have been able to use those if they want to.

So most of you seem to think gender and sex are the same

You obviously haven't spent much time on here. This thread might help you to understand what people on here think.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

Because they want to be known and treated as a boy.

While I totally agree with the OP about it being gender stereotypes etc that causes a lot of this these children need support. They need people to talk to them about why they feel like that etc. What they don’t need is people refusing to call them what they want to be called and making them feel like they cannot be themselves. It’s ok to say “You know girls can do that too.” But I know many trans people and I wish it were as simple as stereotypes etc.

Changing rooms etc can be discussed to help the safety of the child in question and their wishes. Some want to use the one appropriate to their gender, others to their biological sex.

What about what the other children want? Do they have rights too? If girls object to a boy in their changing room do they get a say? Or are they just told that they are bigots?

@Nosquit

Because they want to be known and treated as a boy.

While I totally agree with the OP about it being gender stereotypes etc that causes a lot of this these children need support. They need people to talk to them about why they feel like that etc. What they don’t need is people refusing to call them what they want to be called and making them feel like they cannot be themselves. It’s ok to say “You know girls can do that too.” But I know many trans people and I wish it were as simple as stereotypes etc.

@Nosquit I agree that it is imperative that the child identifying as trans is supported and not judged. But I think an over-affirming and somewhat 'celebratory' response could have negative consequences.

Other children (especially primary-aged) will have questions. This won't make sense to them. And issues need to be explained to them in a sensitive, but truthful and direct way - such as 'no you cannot change from a girl to a boy, but X really wishes she could be a boy and we should try to understand that'.

What I am anxious the school doesn't do, is what orgs such as Stonewall advise - which is instantly affirm the child in their belief, and force that on other young minds too. These issues are just as much about the other children in the classroom.

I’ve been on Mumsnet 10 years under various names. I know the MN stance. There are trans and trans - but as with all things not everyone can be tarred with the same brush, negatively or positively I hasten to add. I disagree with quite a bit of militant trans propaganda, as do the trans people I know. (For example I think it wrong that people can just legally identify so quickly, the old way of ‘living as opposite gender for x years etc” was better - only those who really are trans would go through that hell of torment. The ‘quick’ way is open to abuse. I am also on the fence about trans people in professional sports - I can see both sides to that one and wish it was easier to have a “grouped by ability rather than gender” system such as ‘A-C grade, but know that wouldn’t be easy/possible) But this thread isn’t about that, it is about a kid who is finding out who they are and needs support on both sides. (And yes I did let my child live as a dinosaur for a week and bed called Dennis)

I’ve been on Mumsnet 10 years under various names.

In that case I'm surprised that you think that anyone here thinks sex and gender are the same.

@justawoman

The Roman Catholic Church does not believe in nor teach creationism.

No but they have been known to cover up the perversions of some priests at the same time as shouting about how bad trans and gay people are. Total shocker really as it 2000 years of child abuse being silenced in the name of religion had taught us nothing. 😢

@Nosquit

With regards to 'finding out who they are', what if this girl is simply a tomboy, or a lesbian-in-waiting, who has read some stuff on the internet and now thinks they must be a 'boy'? That would not be 'finding out who they are', but getting massively derailed. And if that child is affirmed, and even celebrated, in their new 'gender identity' (rather than simply accepted, and treated with compassion and humanity) why on earth would they give that up?

There's also the issue that this focus on 'affirming' will leave children hooked and dependent on external validation. Which, I guess, is symptomatic of the age we live in, sadly.

No but they have been known to cover up the perversions of some priests at the same time as shouting about how bad trans and gay people are. Total shocker really as it 2000 years of child abuse being silenced in the name of religion had taught us nothing. 😢

I absolutely agree, have we not learned from the mistakes of the past. This is why enhanced safeguarding and teaching children that they are entitled to boundaries must be considered to be of the utmost importance in all of our schools. Both sexes must have the right to privacy and no child should be expected to put aside their needs for dignity and privacy for anyone else.

Ok @therestissilence I think I understand you. Speaking as someone in education and taking on board what you have said I think my advice would be to think “does people calling them that really make them different?” - it’s like playing a character in a play. At their age it could be a phase or a very real feeling of something not being right. I liked your way of phrasing “X would like to be a boy” but maybe “X feels more like a boy than a girl so we are going to try to make them feel comfortable by respecting their wishes but also show them that girls can do all the same things as boys so maybe they will be comfortable again being a girl.” (Or similar I’m afraid I’m not the best at phrasing things!) - would be a more inclusive option to all views on the subject. Validating the child’s feelings but also nodding to the fact they are still quite young etc.

Also the child in question should certainly be told not to say their peers are “transphobic” for calling them a girl.
The school just needs to be open about it all and educate both sides.
As a parent you can start by explaining to your own child, in a way you find suitable, about the issues. (Again I liked your example given as a starting point - if the child likes to be identified as a boy maybe you can explain it as playing a character or something?)

Btw - I’m sorry if I misunderstood you before and was a bit harsh... with this latest reply I can see the heart you are coming from is a good place. But honestly, I know we are only talking kids here so not relevant but the militant trans really are a minority (all be it a very vocal one!). In my 36 years I have known around 20 Trans people (Friends, colleagues, students I have taught etc) and I can honestly say that though they fight for their rights, as they should, they shake their heads in their hands at some of stonewalls declarations.

@Nosquit. :)

I am firm in my GC beliefs, but my anger is never directed at the child - I care, deeply, about all children in this scenario. My beef is with the adult organisations who, in my mind, have an agenda (at worst) or simply a really regressive world view (at best), and I don't believe for a minute that the interests of children are 'centred' (to use current terminology) in that agenda. We might disagree on that point, we might not.

But it's good to see that when dialogue is allowed, common ground is found!

Thanks for the useful discussion.

Also a confession as I can now see your heart: I personally can’t see at all why anyone would want to be trans as in a way my own mind is prejudice (I’m using that word for myself only) to the thought of “Gender when it comes to trans issues is mostly just a social construct.” I’m happily a girly girl who hates a lot of sports etc and loves my heels, but also has a strong tomboy side that buys T-shirt’s and hoodies in the men’s clothing section and would far prefer going down the local pub for a drink, darts and burping contest (not that I ever did this in 6th form....) with the boys. I see no need to identify as “non-binary” as I was never told that boys and girls shouldn’t do all these things. My own son (teenager) has long hair, often gets mistaken for a girl until he speaks, and likes my little pony and helps me pick shoes and is definitely still identifies as a boy.
Unfortunately society has not got to the stage as a whole where these things are really properly accepted, no matter how much we want it. While clothes shops, toy shops, school uniform codes etc etc etc still insist on differentiating between girl and boy (sports and things like that are a different matter as that’s to do with physical ability) then there are always going to be some who, no matter what will feel they have to be a different gender to be happy even at a young age no matter how many times parents and peers say they don’t because it’s all around them.

I guess at least some of my big fight for trans rights is having my own social construct beliefs shaken by the trans people I know and have known. I don’t think there is any blanket right or wrong answer to such issues. In my mind it’s individual cases and respect. Now we have had a dialogue I see you do have respect and that is by far the most important thing, both for support, teaching and learning with such issues.

@therestissilence It is lovely to have a polite conversation on this where we can air our views and to an extent agree to disagree. I enjoy adult debate as I find I can sometimes teach people things and also learn and grow myself. Thank you.

@334bu

*No but they have been known to cover up the perversions of some priests at the same time as shouting about how bad trans and gay people are. Total shocker really as it 2000 years of child abuse being silenced in the name of religion had taught us nothing. 😢*

I absolutely agree, have we not learned from the mistakes of the past. This is why enhanced safeguarding and teaching children that they are entitled to boundaries must be considered to be of the utmost importance in all of our schools. Both sexes must have the right to privacy and no child should be expected to put aside their needs for dignity and privacy for anyone else.

You're absolutely right. In the main physical appearance suggests there's very little if any outwardly observable physical differences between pre pubescent boys and girls. Forcing them into a box as in some GOP states suggesting grown men inspect their genitalia is nothing short of abuse. I'm quite shocked that the GC are supporting the patriarchy in such a way. That said, I can't say I'm surprised. 😕

Maybe you should respect the boy (or female sexual organ owning person if you prefer to go by what is in someone’s pants/under their shirt rather than who they are) in question and let them live their life?

I can't believe people - teachers? - can write this stuff seriously.

Girls aren't 'female sexual organ owning people' - FFS.

What is this 'who they are' bollocks?

Just because some kids struggle with dysphoria doesn't mean the rest of the school has to become lie validators or nonsense cheer leaders. Please stop asking children to upend biology and science in the name of a sexist, regressive ideology. Its not kind.

I think you should mind your own business. It's not your child, it isn't impacting your child. You've made your views known. The head teacher is perfectly capable of accessing peer reviewed and reliable material. I am hoping your 'literature' went straight in the bin.

Also at your '(too much time on the internet?)' comment. I was thinking exactly the same about you.