Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

[stumbledin]

As set out in the response to the Gender Recognition Act consultation, there are no plans to make changes to the 2004 Act.

Following a considerable amount of consultation with the public and representative organisations, the Government decided that the current provisions within the GRA allow for those that wish to legally change their sex to do so fairly.

The 2018 GRA consultation did not bring forward any proposals to extend the GRA to provide legal recognition to a third, or non-binary, gender. The Government noted that there were complex practical consequences for other areas of the law, service provision and public life if provision were to be made for non-binary gender recognition in the GRA.

In UK law individuals are considered to be the sex that is registered on their birth certificate – either male or female. The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate, but there is currently no provision for those who do not identify as male or female.

This Government wants everybody in the UK to feel safe and confident to be themselves.

We are committed to tackling all forms of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime, and are working with the Home Office on the cross-Government Hate Crime Action Plan. The Government has asked the Law Commission to review the current hate crime legislation, which includes exploring whether homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime should be considered an aggravated offence. We will also take an assessment of local support for hate crime victims and improve reporting and recording of LGBT hate crimes through supporting additional police training.

Following Parliamentary approval on 8th October 2020, voluntary questions on sexual orientation and gender identity were included in the 2021 Census for England and Wales which took place on Sunday 21 March 2021. Final data on sexual orientation and gender identity from the 2021 Census for England and Wales will likely be available from 2023, with initial Census findings planned for publication in March 2022 (timelines subject to change as work progresses). This will help to provide more robust population size estimates for England and Wales than are currently available.

This Government is committed to supporting all LGBT people, tackling discrimination and improving the lives of all citizens.

Cabinet Office
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This is in response to a petition that I will not link to for fear this thread will get banished to the wastelands of the petition section.

But there is a news story here. uk.news.yahoo.com/non-binary-legal-recognition-too-153914753.html

@BlueLipstickRocks

Equally womens spaces are not a sanctury fir anyone who doesn't feel they fit in with other adult human males

Are you really saying that a post op transsexual should use men's spaces?

By Jove, I think they’ve got it!

By Jove, I think they’ve got it!

No, actually I don't and your childish response is ridiculous.

@BlueLipstickRocks

By Jove, I think they’ve got it!

No, actually I don't and your childish response is ridiculous.

And I find your determination to trample all over my boundaries and those of other women highly offensive.

And I find your determination to trample all over my boundaries and those of other women highly offensive.

Since I have not expressly stated my opinion on such things you clearly have decided for me what I am doing.

Are you really saying that a post op transsexual should use men's spaces?

You have created a problem for yourself, and expect women and girls to accommodate you.

You know why women and girls want and need space separate from men/males. Those needs and want don't magically disappear because of your needs and wants. Girls shouldn't have to compromise and ignore their needs because of the decision adult male have made about their bodies and their self image.

I'm saying that adult human males use the adult human male space. And the adult human females use the adult human female space.

Neither is a validation tool for people who think they have made enough effort.

They exist to perform the function of providing privacy dignity and in womens cases safety.

If I go clean a mens toilet I'm.still a woman. A transecual will still he a transexual whether one room.full.of women or alone on the lol. Surely ?

Unless you think rhe space provides something else? What would that be ?

Alone on the.moon

However you do not have the right to define me as "man" in the same terms as every man.

Many would argue that people do have that right, in terms of their thoughts, freedom of speech and polite discourse. They do not have the right though to discriminate against you, in terms of employment rights, services and other legal matters, with the exceptions stated in the EA 2010.

I literally said 'Campaign for third spaces'.

How is that forcing people into men's spaces?

It was instantly rejected.

As for 'no penises', well, okay, but what happens if a genuine transsexual who really, really wants genital surgery is told that it is not an option for them? That the risk is too great? So here we need to consider the following:

a) That all transsexuals with penises are excluded from women's toilets, leading to the distress of those who cannot have the requisite surgery. (Women blamed for being exclusionary)

b) Transsexuals go ahead with surgery against advice, leading to serious health problems and/or worse outcomes in future (women blamed for causing harm to transsexuals)

C) How does one police such a policy? (TRAs favourite talking point)

d) Women allow in those with and without penises to avoid distress of all concerned (but where are the rights of women in this?)

Women are saying no, female-only, single-sex spaces are for women.

It is up to everyone else to decide on what the alternative arrangements should be.

And to try to get this thread vaguely back on topic - where would non binary people go? What facilities would serve them?

Tbe same facilities that serve everyone else. You still either need a urinal or a sanitary bin.

Maybe drs/parents etc should stop advising their patients/friends etc that things are something they aren't.

No one outside the friends and family actually cares about anyones identity. We shouldn't indulge being so self absorbed and fragile

Tbe same facilities that serve everyone else. You still either need a urinal or a sanitary bin.

By that criteria then a post op TS should be using the womens.

Clearly cant use a urinal and at times require a sanitary bin.

Back to toilets again. Massively frustrating. This can be easily resolved with male and female single sex, and mixed sex wherever possible. Done.

That doesn’t take us any further forward on sports, prisons, refuges, clubs...

I really don’t want to get into a debate over what sanitary bins are for, because that is unlikely to be edifying for anyone involved.

I actually think in some circumstances mixed sex is not the way to go.

I think some people need saving from themselves at times.

Anywhere where there are children, or vulnerable people who don't necessarily have full capacity and many young people tbh, placing them.in a position where they have to choose between their own safety and their identity puts them.at risk.

A refuge would be a prime example. Even openly mixed sex. Many people who end up in a refuge/shelter, well who knows what could have happened to them. Boundaries, self worth, etc all.messed up. Choosing to use mixed sex spaces might actually be dangerous for them.

Whilst waiting for these third spaces where would you like my to use? Am I to use the mens if a third space isn't available?

Why is this so unreasonable?

Who do you propose to let use these spaces? Is it just a dumping ground for anyone who is not a woman that can't or won't use a man's space? So all the transvestites and transsexuals get thrown in together? As long as they're away from women that's all that matters?

Everyone can use them. Women who don't mind sharing with men or want to show support for trans people. Men. Transsexuals. Women who don't want to wait in the queue for the women's toilet. That's the whole point. They're for everyone.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Equally womens spaces are not a sanctury fir anyone who doesn't feel they fit in with other adult human males

Are you really saying that a post op transsexual should use men's spaces?

If we start saying it depends on surgery / whether someone has a GRC that’s impossible to police, even if it was desirable.

Neither of those factors means that someone will pass as female. A woman who sees a male in her toilets / changing room doesn’t know their surgical or legal status & obviously has no way of checking. She doesn’t know their bona fides. She simply knows that she’s seeing someone male.

The only people you have to blame for this are Stonewall, Press for Change & the other organisations who pushed for all transpeople to be viewed in the same way and ‘acceptance without exception’.

The only people you have to blame for this are Stonewall, Press for Change & the other organisations who pushed for all transpeople to be viewed in the same way and ‘acceptance without exception’.

Yeah, I didn't really think about this until a couple of years ago. I certainly couldn't understand why the Americans were getting heated about 'bathroom bills'. I thought they were being ridiculous.

But after I started getting forms and surveys asking about 'gender assigned at birth' and telling me I was a 'cis' woman, I started to look into everything more carefully and think a bit more deeply about the issues.

Unfortunately, I didn't draw the conclusions that Stonewall wanted me to draw.

*Whilst waiting for these third spaces where would you like my to use? Am I to use the mens if a third space isn't available?

Why is this so unreasonable?*

Simply because a transsexual faces the same problem a woman would have in a man's space.

No they don't though.

In the uk trans people are the safest demographic. 2 women are killed a week. Upped to 3 in lock down..

Simply because a transsexual faces the same problem a woman would have in a man's space.

What are these problems? Would any other males also face these problems? Such as those who are disabled or gay or very young for example?

@BlueLipstickRocks

*Whilst waiting for these third spaces where would you like my to use? Am I to use the mens if a third space isn't available?

Why is this so unreasonable?*

Simply because a transsexual faces the same problem a woman would have in a man's space.

What is the thought process that leads you from "a transsexual faces the same problem a woman would have in a man's space" to "therefore women's spaces should be open to anyone who wants to enter them and effectively become men's spaces?"

@Whatwouldscullydo

No they don't though.

In the uk trans people are the safest demographic. 2 women are killed a week. Upped to 3 in lock down..

This. And again - if the trans rights organisations, allies like Owen Jones & Adrian Harrop, and Labour, the Greens & the LibDems had wanted to tackle the issue of ‘Yes ALL males’ being safe in single sex spaces, think how much good they could have done. And they wouldn’t have lost women’s goodwill on the way.

Simply because a transsexual faces the same problem a woman would have in a man's space.

Women aren't human shields for vulnerable males. Hence the reasonable suggestion of a third space.