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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

312 replies

stumbledin · 21/05/2021 19:51

As set out in the response to the Gender Recognition Act consultation, there are no plans to make changes to the 2004 Act.

Following a considerable amount of consultation with the public and representative organisations, the Government decided that the current provisions within the GRA allow for those that wish to legally change their sex to do so fairly.

The 2018 GRA consultation did not bring forward any proposals to extend the GRA to provide legal recognition to a third, or non-binary, gender. The Government noted that there were complex practical consequences for other areas of the law, service provision and public life if provision were to be made for non-binary gender recognition in the GRA.

In UK law individuals are considered to be the sex that is registered on their birth certificate – either male or female. The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate, but there is currently no provision for those who do not identify as male or female.

This Government wants everybody in the UK to feel safe and confident to be themselves.

We are committed to tackling all forms of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime, and are working with the Home Office on the cross-Government Hate Crime Action Plan. The Government has asked the Law Commission to review the current hate crime legislation, which includes exploring whether homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime should be considered an aggravated offence. We will also take an assessment of local support for hate crime victims and improve reporting and recording of LGBT hate crimes through supporting additional police training.

Following Parliamentary approval on 8th October 2020, voluntary questions on sexual orientation and gender identity were included in the 2021 Census for England and Wales which took place on Sunday 21 March 2021. Final data on sexual orientation and gender identity from the 2021 Census for England and Wales will likely be available from 2023, with initial Census findings planned for publication in March 2022 (timelines subject to change as work progresses). This will help to provide more robust population size estimates for England and Wales than are currently available.

This Government is committed to supporting all LGBT people, tackling discrimination and improving the lives of all citizens.

Cabinet Office
------

This is in response to a petition that I will not link to for fear this thread will get banished to the wastelands of the petition section.

But there is a news story here. uk.news.yahoo.com/non-binary-legal-recognition-too-153914753.html

OP posts:
BlueLipstickRocks · 25/05/2021 07:49

Why should your need to have your beliefs validated

Since when was body dysmorohia a belief?

Transsexual is not a belief or an identity - its a diagnosis. I am transeexual because I have a diagnosis of F64.0 (ICD) Transsexualism.

Your dysmorphia and your resulting sense of self, your personal sense of identity and how you express it, should be protected in law - but not imposed upon others.

So what - I should he locked away somewhere? That was the view up until the 60s of mental health where people were locked in asylums lest others were disturbed.

Protecting women's rights doesn't mean you get to dismiss transsexuals. You don't get to decide the because I'm not a woman I'm no different to any other man - that's just not true.

BlueLipstickRocks · 25/05/2021 07:52

Message deleted by MNHQ.

I find it bizarre to say the least that MN would delete a post where I stated how Stonewall had impacted me with their agenda.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/05/2021 08:28

You only have to see some of the outrageous mask off stuff they've been hammering stonewall with over the last few days. Much of it disgusting!

Do tell. What is this awful "mask off" stuff? What I've seen is a charity largely funded by tax payers facing some much needed and deserved scrutiny.

SpindleWhorl · 25/05/2021 08:51

@BlueLipstickRocks

Message deleted by MNHQ.

I find it bizarre to say the least that MN would delete a post where I stated how Stonewall had impacted me with their agenda.

I didn't see your post before it was deleted, Blue. Maybe you could rephrase it?
Sophoclesthefox · 25/05/2021 09:08

Is dysmorphia not the belief that ones body is wrong?

Maybe it would help, blue if you walked us through how you are distinguishing between dysphoria and dysmorphia and what it means for you and for women generally that doctors agreed with your beliefs about yourself to form your diagnosis, without going straight to insinuations that women here want you locked up? Nobody here wants you locked up, no more than anyone here hates Steph.

OldCrone · 25/05/2021 10:00

Just as women didn't cause this mess neither did transsexuals. This mess came from heterosexual cross dressers who wanted to appropriate certain things. In your quest to dismiss the modern agenda you are throwing transsexuals under the bus.

You seem to be making a distinction based on sexuality. Are you suggesting that only homosexual transsexuals should be allowed a GRC? Because I don't think the GRA specifies that at all. And we all know that some heterosexual males who start off as fetishistic cross dressers escalate to full transition with hormones and surgery.

JellySlice · 25/05/2021 12:30

So what - I should he locked away somewhere? That was the view up until the 60s of mental health where people were locked in asylums lest others were disturbed.

At no point has anybody said this. Nor will anybody on this board say it. If such a statement were to be made on MN it would rightly be deleted as completely unacceptable.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 25/05/2021 12:34

If such a statement were to be made on MN it would rightly be deleted as completely unacceptable.

Exactly. And plenty of us on here have / have had mental health issues.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/05/2021 12:35

At no point has anybody said this. Nor will anybody on this board say it. If such a statement were to be made on MN it would rightly be deleted as completely unacceptable.

Quite.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 25/05/2021 13:32

Protecting women's rights doesn't mean you get to dismiss transsexuals. You don't get to decide the because I'm not a woman I'm no different to any other man - that's just not true.

But our priority is protecting women's and girls' rights. Including the partners and daughters of transitioners. I have friends who are both & I know that it's that much harder for them to be comfortable or able to talk openly in spaces or groups which are female-only in theory but not in practice.

If Stonewall had fought for safe third spaces for transpeople 'without exception' and for your right not to be discriminated against for being trans, while leaving women's spaces out of it, I think we'd all have been right behind them, especially given that many of us used to simply not see a problem.

But they didn't, and so we've spent the past however many years (coming up to six in my case, since [[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2502963-Guest-post-Sandi-Toksvig-The-time-is-right-for-the-Womens-Equality-Party
the thread where Sophie Walker expressed WEP's views on gender]]) defending ourselves.

I don't think anyone on the thread has said you're 'no different to any other man'. But we're concentrating on women & girls.

NiceGerbil · 26/05/2021 03:14

'So what - I should he locked away somewhere? That was the view up until the 60s of mental health where people were locked in asylums lest others were disturbed.'

I find this comment utterly and totally crass.

Women and girls were put in asylums for years by their families. Because they had no say. Because their behaviour did not fit. Because they were pregnant.

www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2141741/Sent-asylum-The-Victorian-women-locked-suffering-stress-post-natal-depression-anxiety.html

Look at the pictures of those women.

The Magdalen laundries.

'The last Magdalene Laundry in Ireland closed for good on Oct 25, 1996.

Also known as Magdalene asylums, Magdalene Laundries were cruel and medieval institutions in which women were imprisoned, stripped of their human rights and abused sexually and otherwise.

Women sent to the Laundries were deemed “mischievous” or “scandalous” at an incredibly young age and spent years and years of their lives doing penance for their sins, guarded by ruthless nuns.'

Nineteen ninety six.

All over the world NOW women and girls have their behaviour, their clothes, even their bodies controlled and if they transgress then assault or death are socially accepted consequences.

One that upset me. America. I think because of the visceral description. (Don't read if squeamish).

'We went through the top of the head, I think Rosemary was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull. It was near the front. It was on both sides. We just made a small incision, no more than an inch." The instrument Dr. Watts used looked like a butter knife. He swung it up and down to cut brain tissue. "We put an instrument inside", he said. As Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman asked Rosemary some questions. For example, he asked her to recite the Lord's Prayer or sing "God Bless America" or count backward. "We made an estimate on how far to cut based on how she responded." When Rosemary began to become incoherent, they stopped.[25]'

Rosemary Kennedy. Her mother wasn't told what they were going to do. She spent the rest of her life needing care. If you Google her, look at the pictures.

So. You know. Try a different argument. Because that comment.

You don't think seriously that anyone on this thread wants you locked up in an asylum? They don't even exist any more. Bedlam is gone.

We got locked up in large numbers. Young girls. Who didn't behave properly. Women were in there for their whole lives. Because their families had them put away.

So. You have zero risk of going to an asylum in England. There aren't any.

And do you think it's really ok to raise that Spectre? Yes Ireland is a different country. But look at the year FFS look at it.

You have NO chance of being committed. Because some women on the internet disagree with you.

So why say it? Are you being deliberately that provocative? Or do you just write. Whatever.

Women spent their whole lives in those places. Put in as teens. Lived and died there.

Trust me. No women on this thread want that for you.

You know that I'm sure. So why raise the asylum topic? You must know how we were treated.

Didactylos · 26/05/2021 05:16

Nicegerbil, if I could reccomend your post I would do so thousands of times

EdgeOfACoin · 26/05/2021 05:40

Third spaces. Campaign for third spaces.

There is nothing - nothing - that all women have in common apart from biology. I don't know what a gender identity is: nobody can describe it to me in a way that I recognise about myself. I live 'as a woman' because of biology. I am as much a woman when I am in jeans, tee shirt, watching American football on TV and drinking a whisky as I am when I am dressed up in heels and a skirt on a night out drinking white wine. I have no 'innate' sense of gender. I have a job that is typically performed by both men and women. At work I do not perform my job 'as a woman'. I am a woman by the virtue of biology alone. Any views I hold on the matter are shaped by my biology alone. There is no ephemeral womanly essence that all women share.

I have every sympathy for people who suffer from gender dysphoria. Of course there should be provisions in place for those who suffer from it. I think third spaces are the only option to provide for those needs.

As a PP pointed out, women were never asked if they minded sharing toilets with mtf transitioners. It was a decision made by sexist doctors who did seem to think that a male who didn't feel like a male probably was a woman. The inability of the GRC to set out what 'living as a woman' means in practice just shows what a mess it is. Use a female name on a gas bill? What about Dr Leslie Jones? Is Leslie male or female? Or take a look at the baby name boards on here, when every day there are threads about giving a baby girl a 'boy' name. Using toilets designated for the opposite sex is just about the only thing that the GRC creators could come up with.

Post-op transsexuals may have the right to differentiate themselves from transvestites or those who have not had genital surgery. However, women have the right to differentiate themselves from transsexuals. Women have the right to single-sex spaces away from anyone born male. Anyone. No post-op transsexual has the right to say 'well, I am sufficiently a woman but those people over there are not', and then to criticise women for doing the same thing. It is an insult, quite frankly.

Non-binary is a farce too. What does it mean? What does 'feeling' like a woman or man feel like, and how does one know that one is different from the binary? Thankfully the current government seems to have come to its senses on this for now. Long may it continue.

BettyFilous · 26/05/2021 06:37

Great post @EdgeOfACoin 👏

BlueLipstickRocks · 26/05/2021 07:16

Third spaces. Campaign for third spaces.
Third spaces is touted as the solution but in truth its not.

Sadly many of those under the "trans umbrella" use womens spaces simply because they are just that - womens spaces. I know for a fact very very few would actually use a third space.

Third spaces would quickly become a target for "trans chasers". In a society where homosexuality is still stigmatised, many men seek out trans as a way of fulfilling homosexual desires whilst still convincing themselves they are straight. A third space would be very dangerous.

Who do you propose to let use these spaces? Is it just a dumping ground for anyone who is not a woman that can't or won't use a man's space? So all the transvestites and transsexuals get thrown in together? As long as they're away from women that's all that matters?

Whilst waiting for these third spaces where would you like my to use? Am I to use the mens if a third space isn't available?

I note the argument has changed again.
It started, quite rightly, as a no to self ID.
It then became again quite rightly a no to a penis in a woman's space even if the person was gatekept.
It has now become a no to anyone born male even when they don't have a penis.
This feels a step too far.

Historically there was never an issue. 5000 GRC holders, myself included, who were rigorously gatekept who fully transitioned and integrated. I am not responsible for the problem we have nowadays, Stonewall do not represent me and I actively speak out against them.

It is hugely offensive when I hear that transgender and transsexual are just the same thing...its all just men in dresses. I don't like this agenda any more than you do but I will not be made to feel responsible for something I have actively campaigned against.

Thankfully the current government seems to have come to its senses on this for now

Yes, they have thankfully. What is left though, in law, is still transsexuals. The Government has not removed the protections for transsexuals. The fight to not reform the GRC was won - that doesn't now mean you get to ignore the GRC warts and all.

BlueLipstickRocks · 26/05/2021 07:29

*So what - I should he locked away somewhere? That was the view up until the 60s of mental health where people were locked in asylums lest others were disturbed.'

I find this comment utterly and totally crass.*

I stand by my comment.

I am not 21. I grew up in the 70s and 80s in a very religious community when I was gender non confirming and I was gay. I've had conversion therapy. I've been sectioned. I've lived in a society that decided I was an evil deviant that didn't belong. I'm still in therapy decades later.
So when I hear that I shouldnt inflict my transsexuality on others I am reminded of that time and those attitudes which still exist. I know there is people that would see me locked up for my deviancy because 40 years ago they did.

I am familiar with Magdalen Asylums and the revolting treatment of young women by the church and we should never forget how recently this was. We should not forget though the way gay people were treated by these same groups. Forced surgeries, incarceration, conversion therapy, aversion therapy..... These groups derived a twisted set of morals from what they thought the bible taught and anyone who fell outside that was a target no matter who or what they are. And no, I am not denying for one minute that society was and often still is hugely sexist and discriminatory towards women but rather that it is seldom so simply that men are a united cohesive group and the enemy of women.

justawoman · 26/05/2021 07:31

It’s not about you.

justawoman · 26/05/2021 07:33

Women are allowed to talk about our issues without cantering you all the time. In fact, coming on here, insisting we listen to you, putting on multiple long posts all about your feelings and refusing to see that what you want has the potential to harm women... all these are good illustrations of why we don’t want any men, transsexual or otherwise, in our spaces.

BlueLipstickRocks · 26/05/2021 07:42

Women are allowed to talk about our issues without cantering you all the time

Did I say otherwise?

I am also allowed to be able to differentiate transsexuals from other aspects of the "umbrella" without being told we are all just men.

It’s not about you.

The situation we find ourselves in over self ID etc is about women AND about transsexuals. Absolutely the way things are right now is unacceptable and dangerous and must be stopped. The proposed solution seems to be to throw out the transsexuals, rigidly divide on biological sex and decide that only women matter. I disagree. Transsexuals exist. As much as the safety of women and children are a priority that doesn't mean you get to discard transsexuals as an inconvenience.

This determination that I must automatically be the enemy of women is disturbing.

BlueLipstickRocks · 26/05/2021 07:44

coming on here, insisting we listen to you, putting on multiple long posts all about your feelings and refusing to see that what you want has the potential to harm women.

I havent insisted on anything.

I have been asked questions and I responded.

I know how toxic the transgender ideology is. I oppose everything it stands for.

Dont tell me what I want because you don't know what I want.

EdgeOfACoin · 26/05/2021 08:08

I am just going to repeat what I said previously BlueLipstick

No post-op transsexual has the right to say 'well, I am sufficiently a woman but those people over there are not', and then to criticise women for doing the same thing.

Do you really think I am wrong about this?

BlueLipstickRocks · 26/05/2021 08:22

*No post-op transsexual has the right to say 'well, I am sufficiently a woman but those people over there are not', and then to criticise women for doing the same thing.

Do you really think I am wrong about this?*

Yes, I do think you are wrong on two points.

Firstly it's not about "sufficiently a woman" but rather the fact that post op transsexuals have gone through an extensive gatekept process and have integrated into society into a more feminine gender role. The argument was "No penises in women's spaces". When did it become "No one born male?"

Secondly a woman has of course ever right to say I'm not a woman. However you do not have the right to define me as "man" in the same terms as every man. You don't get to defend womanhood and then turn round and erase transsexual. Telling me I'm not a woman doesn't mean you get to push me onto men.

The trans umbrella cannot be viewed as a single entity. Unfortunately it is and therefore everyone is seen as the most toxic element. Just because some men have a fetishistic agenda doesn't mean everyone does.

Sophoclesthefox · 26/05/2021 08:26

you’re not wrong, edgeofacoin

i don’t think the argument changed, there was always a range of opinion aboit women’s spaces, and I think that yet again, we’re using toilets as a proxy for all women’s spaces. in sports, for example, I have never been “no penises”, I have always been “no males at all”.

Whatwouldscullydo · 26/05/2021 08:34

Telling me I'm not a woman doesn't mean you get to push me onto men

Man just means adult human.male. we aren't pushing anyone onto anything.

Equally womens spaces are not a sanctury fir anyone who doesn't feel they fit in with other adult human males.

BlueLipstickRocks · 26/05/2021 08:37

Equally womens spaces are not a sanctury fir anyone who doesn't feel they fit in with other adult human males

Are you really saying that a post op transsexual should use men's spaces?