Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

[stumbledin]

As set out in the response to the Gender Recognition Act consultation, there are no plans to make changes to the 2004 Act.

Following a considerable amount of consultation with the public and representative organisations, the Government decided that the current provisions within the GRA allow for those that wish to legally change their sex to do so fairly.

The 2018 GRA consultation did not bring forward any proposals to extend the GRA to provide legal recognition to a third, or non-binary, gender. The Government noted that there were complex practical consequences for other areas of the law, service provision and public life if provision were to be made for non-binary gender recognition in the GRA.

In UK law individuals are considered to be the sex that is registered on their birth certificate – either male or female. The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate, but there is currently no provision for those who do not identify as male or female.

This Government wants everybody in the UK to feel safe and confident to be themselves.

We are committed to tackling all forms of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime, and are working with the Home Office on the cross-Government Hate Crime Action Plan. The Government has asked the Law Commission to review the current hate crime legislation, which includes exploring whether homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime should be considered an aggravated offence. We will also take an assessment of local support for hate crime victims and improve reporting and recording of LGBT hate crimes through supporting additional police training.

Following Parliamentary approval on 8th October 2020, voluntary questions on sexual orientation and gender identity were included in the 2021 Census for England and Wales which took place on Sunday 21 March 2021. Final data on sexual orientation and gender identity from the 2021 Census for England and Wales will likely be available from 2023, with initial Census findings planned for publication in March 2022 (timelines subject to change as work progresses). This will help to provide more robust population size estimates for England and Wales than are currently available.

This Government is committed to supporting all LGBT people, tackling discrimination and improving the lives of all citizens.

Cabinet Office
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This is in response to a petition that I will not link to for fear this thread will get banished to the wastelands of the petition section.

But there is a news story here. uk.news.yahoo.com/non-binary-legal-recognition-too-153914753.html

What is the thought process that leads you from "a transsexual faces the same problem a woman would have in a man's space" to "therefore women's spaces should be open to anyone who wants to enter them and effectively become men's spaces?"

I have no such thought process and have never said such I thing. I do not beleive womens spaces should be open to anyone and accept the dangers associated with the current mess.

That is not to say I do not think post op transsexuals with a GRC should not be permitted to share womens spaces as has always been done with consent. Quite how this is workable is another matter but the principle stands.

@BlueLipstickRocks

*Whilst waiting for these third spaces where would you like my to use? Am I to use the mens if a third space isn't available?

Why is this so unreasonable?*

Simply because a transsexual faces the same problem a woman would have in a man's space.

No, you do not face the same problems as people who are female. Male transsexuals are not the same as females.

Women's spaces are not there to mop up all the male-sexed people who experience hostility from toxic masculinity in men's spaces, our needs are different from yours.

It has not been done "with consent". When were most women asked for their consent then? I must have missed that.

For the record, I do not consent to any males in women's single sex spaces.

No, you do not face the same problems as people who are female. Male transsexuals are not the same as females.

You dont think a transsexual in a male space is sexualised, at risk of abuse and rape?

What do you see the difference as ?

That is not to say I do not think post op transsexuals with a GRC should not be permitted to share womens spaces as has always been done with consent. Quite how this is workable is another matter but the principle stands.

You did not have our consent. We were never asked.

The presumption was that we wouldn't notice. And that if we did notice we wouldn't mind as 'post-op' males were harmless. But we never gave our consent to sharing intimate spaces for females-only with males. And the intrusion of males into our spaces has caused us harm, so now we need to enforce that boundary.

And the intrusion of males into our spaces has caused us harm, so now we need to enforce that boundary.

And the solution therefore is to push transexuals back into male spaces, and ignore the repercussions?

Why is the dividing line done to exclude transsexuals? Why does it have to be "all the trans umbrella" or "none of the trans umbrella"?

@BlueLipstickRocks

No, you do not face the same problems as people who are female. Male transsexuals are not the same as females.

You dont think a transsexual in a male space is sexualised, at risk of abuse and rape?

What do you see the difference as ?

You might be. So are male children. So are feminine males. So are gay males. So are males with disabilities.

That doesn't make them women and it doesn't mean that at-risk males should be able to seek refuge in female-only spaces instead.

You need another solution. Third spaces are it.

You need another solution. Third spaces are it.

And in the meantime?

@BlueLipstickRocks

And the intrusion of males into our spaces has caused us harm, so now we need to enforce that boundary.

And the solution therefore is to push transexuals back into male spaces, and ignore the repercussions?

Why is the dividing line done to exclude transsexuals? Why does it have to be "all the trans umbrella" or "none of the trans umbrella"?

It's not "all of the trans umbrella".

It's ALL MALES. Whether they are trans or not is irrelevant.

Female spaces are for female people.

That is not to say I do not think post op transsexuals with a GRC should not be permitted to share womens spaces as has always been done with consent

I’m not sure if you’ve just not seen my posts, but I will say again that this just is not so. Sports, for example. Communal changing rooms. Prisons. Hospital wards. These spaces have been single sex, and women wish them to continue to be so.

AAnd for this spaces that have been open to transsexuals, which is pretty much only toilets, I did not consent.

It's not "all of the trans umbrella".

It's ALL MALES. Whether they are trans or not is irrelevant.

Female spaces are for female people.

This.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's not "all of the trans umbrella".

It's ALL MALES. Whether they are trans or not is irrelevant.

Female spaces are for female people.

This.

Yes.

You can call it "All Of The Male Umbrella" if that helps you to understand, Blue.

You did not have our consent. We were never asked.

I find the assumption that women en masse consented to males in our spaces infuriating. No we fucking didn't.

It's ALL MALES. Whether they are trans or not is irrelevant

Its very relevant.

Why should I as a long time post op transsexual with a GRC working within a female dominated industry start using the mens toilets because of a pushback against the transgender umbrella?

I see a lot of "women need...". The reality is women are just as diverse as trans. Some women support self ID and anyone identifying into a female space; others support those who are post op and some are exclude post op. Which group gets to win? There is no united voice for women. You dont get to say "this is what I want....I am a woman therefore this is what all woman want".

I know for a fact that those I work with for example are perfectly happy for me to use a womans space as post op. Some are happy simply by virtue of my being trans and would accept anyone with original equipment (though I disagree). Others accept me for being post op but would reject those who arent. I know of one person who is accepting due to a GRC.

What I have been told by more than a few people is that all this mess comes down to a right to say no on individual cases. Same as with pronouns. Its about not having enforced rules that define all trans as equal and to support one is to support all.

I find the assumption that women en masse consented to males in our spaces infuriating. No we fucking didn't.

I find the assumption that all women are equally opposed to be infurtiating. Yes, some are. Just as some are accepting.

You have a perfectly valid position - it doesnt mean it should be forced on all women.

I am.perfectly comfortable with sharing spaces with post op Transexuals. For me, womens spaces should be penis free zones . If someone is so gender dysphoric that they have removed their male sex organ then I am comfortable sharing toilets with them. However, how does one legislate for that ? What about sports? Prisons? It's a nightmare brought about by Stonewall at el riding roughshod over womens boundaries. Post op transexuals have been accessing womens spaces for decades and have been accepted as there are so few of them. Now any man in a skirt can access womens spaces and this is utterly unacceptable.

I find the assumption that all women are equally opposed to be infurtiating. Yes, some are. Just as some are accepting.

Oh give over with the attempt to reverse the situation. It's not about who is and who isn't opposed. Women were never asked for our consent. I wasn't asked for my consent, It wasn't considered important. It's that simple. Whether or not women say yes, you can't simply presume their consent.

Why should I as a long time post op transsexual with a GRC working within a female dominated industry start using the mens toilets because of a pushback against the transgender umbrella?

Out of consideration for the sex those spaces are intended for, who do not consent to any members of the opposite sex being present because they feel it is a violation of their privacy and dignity.

@BlueLipstickRocks

It's ALL MALES. Whether they are trans or not is irrelevant

Its very relevant.

Why should I as a long time post op transsexual with a GRC working within a female dominated industry start using the mens toilets because of a pushback against the transgender umbrella?

I see a lot of "women need...". The reality is women are just as diverse as trans. Some women support self ID and anyone identifying into a female space; others support those who are post op and some are exclude post op. Which group gets to win? There is no united voice for women. You dont get to say "this is what I want....I am a woman therefore this is what all woman want".

I know for a fact that those I work with for example are perfectly happy for me to use a womans space as post op. Some are happy simply by virtue of my being trans and would accept anyone with original equipment (though I disagree). Others accept me for being post op but would reject those who arent. I know of one person who is accepting due to a GRC.

What I have been told by more than a few people is that all this mess comes down to a right to say no on individual cases. Same as with pronouns. Its about not having enforced rules that define all trans as equal and to support one is to support all.

Yes, women's views are very diverse.

But single-sex spaces are there to protect the vulnerable, the women who, without that single-sex provision, would be excluded from public life because they need female-only spaces. There are lots of women who are happy to share mixed sex spaces and would be happy to use a "unisex" public toilet or a third option "gender neutral" space. There are women who do not mind a male doctor for intimate procedures. There are women who wouldn't mind undressing or wearing a swimming costume in the presence of males, and there are women who very much do mind. There are women who would have no problem in a mixed sex dormitory (in fact, when I was younger I frequently shared changing rooms and sleeping dorms with men and had absolutely no issue with it whatsoever).

However, there are a lot of women who do mind, and that is why single-sex provisions were established. Because it is the women who do mind who are vulnerable and disadvantaged by not having a female-only provision.

The women who don't mind do not get to give consent for the women who do. That is not how consent works.

In matters of consent, "No" trumps "yes", every time.

Oh give over with the attempt to reverse the situation.

You made an argument, I disagreed.

Funny how if I tried to silence you in any way I would be instantly shot down with cries of mysoginy and sexism.

I have not told you to "give over" on things I disagree with so would respectfully ask you please do the same.

You made an argument, I disagreed.

As pointed out to you, your reversal doesn't work. You can't get my consent by proxy from women who agree with you. That's not how it works.

Out of consideration for the sex those spaces are intended for, who do not consent to any members of the opposite sex being present because they feel it is a violation of their privacy and dignity.

Who is "they" ? It is some women. There is no single position here representative of all women.

Some men object to women in the workplace beleiving they should be housewives. Should women stay at home because of the chauvanistic and sexist position of some men?

Where should be respect for women end? Should I resign from my job in a female dominated industry? Should I refuse my Oestrogen patches in case a woman needs them? Should I stop attending my mammograms in case a woman is uncomfortable?

I have not told you to "give over" on things I disagree with so would respectfully ask you please do the same.

Well I respectfully ask you to engage with what we as individual women feel. It's not for male people to say that my consent doesn't matter because some women disagree with me.

Women were never consulted, and as I said it is infuriating when people imply that we do consent. No.

Who is "they" ? It is some women.

It is MANY women.