Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

[stumbledin]

As set out in the response to the Gender Recognition Act consultation, there are no plans to make changes to the 2004 Act.

Following a considerable amount of consultation with the public and representative organisations, the Government decided that the current provisions within the GRA allow for those that wish to legally change their sex to do so fairly.

The 2018 GRA consultation did not bring forward any proposals to extend the GRA to provide legal recognition to a third, or non-binary, gender. The Government noted that there were complex practical consequences for other areas of the law, service provision and public life if provision were to be made for non-binary gender recognition in the GRA.

In UK law individuals are considered to be the sex that is registered on their birth certificate – either male or female. The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate, but there is currently no provision for those who do not identify as male or female.

This Government wants everybody in the UK to feel safe and confident to be themselves.

We are committed to tackling all forms of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime, and are working with the Home Office on the cross-Government Hate Crime Action Plan. The Government has asked the Law Commission to review the current hate crime legislation, which includes exploring whether homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime should be considered an aggravated offence. We will also take an assessment of local support for hate crime victims and improve reporting and recording of LGBT hate crimes through supporting additional police training.

Following Parliamentary approval on 8th October 2020, voluntary questions on sexual orientation and gender identity were included in the 2021 Census for England and Wales which took place on Sunday 21 March 2021. Final data on sexual orientation and gender identity from the 2021 Census for England and Wales will likely be available from 2023, with initial Census findings planned for publication in March 2022 (timelines subject to change as work progresses). This will help to provide more robust population size estimates for England and Wales than are currently available.

This Government is committed to supporting all LGBT people, tackling discrimination and improving the lives of all citizens.

Cabinet Office
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This is in response to a petition that I will not link to for fear this thread will get banished to the wastelands of the petition section.

But there is a news story here. uk.news.yahoo.com/non-binary-legal-recognition-too-153914753.html

Oldcrone - For unknown reasons, I can't reply to you direct. From what I know, Ireland have used their democratic rights to legislate for self ID. As far as I know there hasn't been a significant increase in offending against women that can be attributed to that alone. On a personal level, I along with many others have self Id'd into spaces for a long time. Of course 'show us your chromosomes' may well become a thing but, I'm guessing the young ain't on-board with that.

That's between you and Stonewall. It is not something that should be legislated. It is not the place of the law to define what each faith is or is not.

Stonewall have declared themselves an authority on trans. They are not.

The Government should never have listened to them but thankfully have seem the error if their ways.

The Government may not get to decide what trans means but why did it turn to Stonewall? Would it ask the Jewish community to speak for Christians?

On a personal level, I along with many others have self Id'd into spaces for a long time.

That makes you part of the problem.

What gives you the right to do that?

@Steph751

Oldcrone - For unknown reasons, I can't reply to you direct. From what I know, Ireland have used their democratic rights to legislate for self ID. As far as I know there hasn't been a significant increase in offending against women that can be attributed to that alone. On a personal level, I along with many others have self Id'd into spaces for a long time. Of course 'show us your chromosomes' may well become a thing but, I'm guessing the young ain't on-board with that.

You don't seem to be very well informed about the situation in Ireland. Here's some reading for you.

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-self-id-nightmare

More links and discussion about what is happening in Ireland on this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3746471-Defence-lawyer-says-that-the-Gender-Recognition-Act-has-placed-the-State-in-an-impossible-position-with-regard-to-transgender-prisoners

@merrymouse

The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate

To protect privacy, not because it’s possible to literally change sex.

This is a crucial point, of which some judges and politicians need reminding.

@BlueLipstickRocks

On a personal level, I along with many others have self Id'd into spaces for a long time.

That makes you part of the problem.

What gives you the right to do that?

Well, for a long time in my case it was a mixture of legislation. In 2010 the government brought it together under the EA. The EA offers the reasonable expectation and even in exceptional certain cases that people will fo!low the law. If it's a problem you really did need to focus your argument on the EA in the first place and not the GRA. I have no right to anything but, daily life suggests using fancied that using the ladies for 25 years hasn't resulted in an increase in offending. Perhaps you know different?

On a personal level, I along with many others have self Id'd into spaces for a long time.

I’ve seen this surface a lot recently, and I’m sorry to say that it really isn’t the knock out blow you think it is. Women do have the expectation that single sex facilities are single sex, and with the exception of maybe public loos, they have been. Sports teams, prisons, hospital wards, rape crisis centres have not been open to transwomen until very recently. The more you double down on “women never had the right to single sex spaces”, the more push back you’ll get, because a large percentage of women very much do want that and are surprised to hear that apparently they never had that right. It’s an own goal.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Or, if you prefer, females remain female, and males remain male however they present and regardless of any body modifications.

In other words "you're all just men".

You cat disagree all you like about rights but the fact remains a transsexual is very different to a transvestite.

I agree.

There is a huge difference between a fully transitioned transexual and a transvestite. I am anti self id, but pro GRC. I would like to think that we could space share with some strict gate keeping. It's worked fine for years after all. It seems impossible at the moment though, whilst the T is highjacked and so many people are trying to destroy the social contract that existed.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Can you explain what you think a 'transsexual' person should be allowed to do that a transgender person should not?

Why should they not?

You haven't explained why you need a differentiator between 'transsexuals' and 'transgender' people. For what reason? What do you think group A should be able to do that is different to what group B can do?

Neither of you have actually changed sex, so why do you feel you (plural - transsexuals) need to be a different subcategory within the Gender Reassignment protected characteristic?

And this is the exact thing that stonewall etc have done.

The GRC legislation predicted about 5k GRC and got it pretty much bang on.

With a smaller cohort, and women turning a blind eye pretty much, it was kind of ok.

Then comes transgender, stonewall, self ID. And women go hold on a fucking minute.

And the only response is to push back on the whole lot.

That's not our fault. Talk to stonewall. And the individuals who have been working on getting things changed quietly in the background for years.

Rapists in women's prisons
Males in women's sport
Self id into changing rooms
Kick boxing rugby etc saying twaw no problem

It's a hard no now. Not our fault. Not suddenly being mean. Reacting to a massive breach of the social contract, the changes being made at speed to everything we needed -our words even.

No. That's that.

@NiceGerbil

And this is the exact thing that stonewall etc have done.

The GRC legislation predicted about 5k GRC and got it pretty much bang on.

With a smaller cohort, and women turning a blind eye pretty much, it was kind of ok.

Then comes transgender, stonewall, self ID. And women go hold on a fucking minute.

And the only response is to push back on the whole lot.

That's not our fault. Talk to stonewall. And the individuals who have been working on getting things changed quietly in the background for years.

Rapists in women's prisons
Males in women's sport
Self id into changing rooms
Kick boxing rugby etc saying twaw no problem

It's a hard no now. Not our fault. Not suddenly being mean. Reacting to a massive breach of the social contract, the changes being made at speed to everything we needed -our words even.

No. That's that.

That pretty much covers it. We gave an inch, they took a mile. It was never OK, but it was tolerated. Once women and girls started being sexually assaulted by transwomen in women’s facilities (Karen White, Katie Dolatowski et al) and injured in contact sports (Tammika Brent, Hannah Mouncey’s team mates, Mx “folded her like a deck chair”) the game was up. We’ve wised up and shrugged off the pesky socialisation that got us into this mess. Enough!

'Bluelipstick rock's

I'm so sad to see you separate us. I'm a fully transitioned transsexual as of '99 with a bit of added extra in '16 but, I'm transgender like many others. When the right wing have used the GC to eliminate TG they will come for you too. There's nowhere to hide and and they hate you no less than they hate me. Perhaps you're useful for now but don't kid yourself that's out of love. You only have to see some of the outrageous mask off stuff they've been hammering stonewall with over the last few days. Much of it disgusting! Please look after yourself, no matter how much you disagree, the GC wont. ,

What does a bit of added extra in 16 mean?

And really interesting to see this thread used to try to guilt/ persuade/ 'wrong side of history' by one trans person against another trans person.

'When the right wing have used the GC to eliminate TG they will come for you too. There's nowhere to hide and and they hate you no less than they hate me. Perhaps you're useful for now but don't kid yourself that's out of love'

Useful to who for what?
Why would the Tories want to eliminate trans people? It includes cross dressing right? This is the Tories we're talking about!

'The GC' sounds kind of good though. Like the Borg or something.

That post is really interesting.

I'd be very surprised if I'm being used by the Tories to 'eliminate' transgender people. Firstly because I have never felt the desire to eliminate anyone. And secondly because I hate the Tories.

However no doubt I'm a malleable housewife or something so whatever.

Out of interest. How does saying eg rugby should be sex segregated eliminate anyone?

NiceGerbil
And this is the exact thing that stonewall etc have done.

The GRC legislation predicted about 5k GRC and got it pretty much bang on.

With a smaller cohort, and women turning a blind eye pretty much, it was kind of ok.

Then comes transgender, stonewall, self ID. And women go hold on a fucking minute.

And the only response is to push back on the whole lot.

That's not our fault. Talk to stonewall. And the individuals who have been working on getting things changed quietly in the background for years.

Rapists in women's prisons
Males in women's sport
Self id into changing rooms
Kick boxing rugby etc saying twaw no problem

It's a hard no now. Not our fault. Not suddenly being mean. Reacting to a massive breach of the social contract, the changes being made at speed to everything we needed -our words even.

No. That's that.

^Entirely agree, sadly

When the right wing have used the GC to eliminate TG they will come for you too.

I don't think your patronising statements here like this are as influential as you might think.
It comes across a bit generational really, you are clearly used to an historical mindset that views women as a passive entity that others control and manipulate. And therein lies your major fault line.
We aren't. You are going to have to get used to this sooner or later.

That post was aimed at the trans poster, no one else.

It was interesting to read though.

@Cleanandpress

When the right wing have used the GC to eliminate TG they will come for you too.

I don't think your patronising statements here like this are as influential as you might think.
It comes across a bit generational really, you are clearly used to an historical mindset that views women as a passive entity that others control and manipulate. And therein lies your major fault line.
We aren't. You are going to have to get used to this sooner or later.

I thought the same. I also smiled at the sexist assumption that we should be looking after the transexuals - the usual ‘universal Mum’/service human trope. No thanks. Feminist effort centres women and girls, for GC feminists this means the biological ones.

"You haven't explained why you need a differentiator between 'transsexuals' and 'transgender' people. For what reason? What do you think group A should be able to do that is different to what group B can do?"

You have jumped from identity to rights. This don't have to be the same issue.

Why shouldn't I have my dysmorphia recognised? Why shouldnt I get medical treatment appropriate for transsexuals?

Why must I be thrown into a transgender pot and told I'm just the same as all the rest? You have the right to say I'm not a woman- you don't have a right to say that I'm no different to any other man because that's frankly not true.

Just as women didn't cause this mess neither did transsexuals. This mess came from heterosexual cross dressers who wanted to appropriate certain things. In your quest to dismiss the modern agenda you are throwing transsexuals under the bus.

*And the only response is to push back on the whole lot.

That's not our fault. *

Its not my fault either. I agree its a huge problem but I fail to see how transsexuals can be seen as acceptable çollateral damage.

This whole scenario started as a push back to self ID. Why did it need to become "and even if youre not we don't care you're all just men in dresses".

Yes, that does have an assumption underpinning it that women are passive agents of some sort of shadowy right wing (male only?) extermination squad, doesn’t it? Multiple layers of nonsense. Thinking that feminism is being used as a basis for the drive to eliminate anyone really plays on the trope that has always been latent in some people’s minds that feminists are out to secretly destroy men. Not sure how we’re supposed to want that when we don’t know our own minds and are being led by the nose by Nazis, but logical, factual debate is clearly not the game here.

Nobody here hates trans people, steph. Why are you telling people that we do? What is it about feminists discussing women’s rights that makes you conclude that is what is behind this?

I'm so sad to see you separate us. I'm a fully transitioned transsexual as of '99 with a bit of added extra in '16 but, I'm transgender like many others.

Given your disrespect towards women don't include me in "us". I oppose self ID. I think the GRC should require surgery. I oppose trans in opposite sex sports etc..

I question anyone who claims to be a post op transsexual yet brags about self iDing into womens spaces. In the act of doing so you invalidate any claim to womanhood because you clearly demonstrate that you don't see things the way women do.

I will fight a corner for transsexuals to continue to be recognised and supported appropriated. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore women and treat them the way you are right now.

I find it so sad that Stonewall were too consumed in their own power grab to recognise the damage they were going to do. They have inflicted damage on Lesbians and fully transitioned transwomen. I knew someone years ago who transitioned fully and she does not resemble the TRA's who have destroyed the social contract.

I feel that women have been really hurt by what has happened and we feel angry and betrayed. I hope this wont last, I hope legislators will see the errors and make adjustments. I feel we will then all be in a place to see what is and what isn't possible.

Don't forget that Doctors were advising Transwomen to use women's loos as part of their living as a woman. So many things are to blame but the worst thing of all, for us, is that no one asked us and Stonewall still don't want our opinion.

Why shouldn't I have my dysmorphia recognised? Why shouldnt I get medical treatment appropriate for transsexuals?

I accept and support this. But why should this be imposed upon others? Why should your need to have your beliefs validated result in the falsification of records or the removal of others' rights?

You need your identity as a 'male woman' recognised. How is that different to someone who identifies as 'non-binary'? Should they not be entitled to the same legal recognition?

It cannot work. Legislating that an adult male human can be anything other than a man, or an adult female human anything other than a woman, creates a harmful legal fiction with appalling ramifications for women, children and the vulnerable.

Your dysmorphia and your resulting sense of self, your personal sense of identity and how you express it, should be protected in law - but not imposed upon others.