Government says it is too complex to make changes to the GRA to include non binary

[stumbledin]

As set out in the response to the Gender Recognition Act consultation, there are no plans to make changes to the 2004 Act.

Following a considerable amount of consultation with the public and representative organisations, the Government decided that the current provisions within the GRA allow for those that wish to legally change their sex to do so fairly.

The 2018 GRA consultation did not bring forward any proposals to extend the GRA to provide legal recognition to a third, or non-binary, gender. The Government noted that there were complex practical consequences for other areas of the law, service provision and public life if provision were to be made for non-binary gender recognition in the GRA.

In UK law individuals are considered to be the sex that is registered on their birth certificate – either male or female. The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate, but there is currently no provision for those who do not identify as male or female.

This Government wants everybody in the UK to feel safe and confident to be themselves.

We are committed to tackling all forms of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime, and are working with the Home Office on the cross-Government Hate Crime Action Plan. The Government has asked the Law Commission to review the current hate crime legislation, which includes exploring whether homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime should be considered an aggravated offence. We will also take an assessment of local support for hate crime victims and improve reporting and recording of LGBT hate crimes through supporting additional police training.

Following Parliamentary approval on 8th October 2020, voluntary questions on sexual orientation and gender identity were included in the 2021 Census for England and Wales which took place on Sunday 21 March 2021. Final data on sexual orientation and gender identity from the 2021 Census for England and Wales will likely be available from 2023, with initial Census findings planned for publication in March 2022 (timelines subject to change as work progresses). This will help to provide more robust population size estimates for England and Wales than are currently available.

This Government is committed to supporting all LGBT people, tackling discrimination and improving the lives of all citizens.

Cabinet Office
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This is in response to a petition that I will not link to for fear this thread will get banished to the wastelands of the petition section.

But there is a news story here. uk.news.yahoo.com/non-binary-legal-recognition-too-153914753.html

I don't see why the Govt don't amend the GRA to allow for non-binary identities. It would make as much sense as the current one; I don't see what the justification is for allowing one nonsensical pretence and not another.

@BlueLipstickRocks

The GRA is not good law. It is divisive, discriminatory, unfair and unenforceable. It needs to be repealed.

I dont think it's particularly good law either but it's the only differentiator right now of medicalised transsexuals versus self ID.

You take it away and you not no longer separate transgender from transsexual and you've created a far bigger problem.

Prior to GRA we had the Sex Discrimination Act (Gender Reassignment). We do need something in law to support transsexual.

Why can't you just have a the Protected Characteristic of Gender Reassignment which gives you protection from unfair discrimination, without the fiction of a changed-sex birth certificate?

Why can't you just have a the Protected Characteristic of Gender Reassignment which gives you protection from unfair discrimination, without the fiction of a changed-sex birth certificate?

Because the Equality Act has made a mockery of the characteristic by saying that as long as someone states an intention to transition In the future then that is no different to someone who actually has.

Transsexuals had GRA
Transgender got EA
You take away GRA and you turn transsexuals into no different to cross dressers, transvestites and drag queens who according to Stonewall are part of the umbrella.

I don't see why the Govt don't amend the GRA to allow for non-binary identities. It would make as much sense as the current one; I don't see what the justification is for allowing one nonsensical pretence and not another.

Because it was written for transsexuals with the expectation of reassignment surgery.

The GRA is the differentiator between transsexual and transgender. You may not like it - in not especially keen - but a differentiator is essential.

There is no longer a surgical requirement for a GRC, so it’s not differentiating between transexuals and transgender people who have retained their original plumbing.

*I dont think it's particularly good law either but it's the only differentiator right now of medicalised transsexuals versus self ID.

You take it away and you not no longer separate transgender from transsexual and you've created a far bigger problem.*

There is no need to differentiate between them. Their right to self-express should be protected, but only insofar as it does not impinge on others' rights. Exactly as our rights to freedom of faith and belief (and unbelief) are protected.

If a man believes himself to be a woman, or chooses to give himself a feminine name, or conform to feminine stereotypes by dress or behaviour, or modify his body via drugs or surgery, his right to express his belief should be protected. So he should not for example be banned from accessing men's services or facilities. But neither should he be allowed to appropriate women's name or services.

If a man believes himself to be a woman, or chooses to give himself a feminine name, or conform to feminine stereotypes by dress or behaviour, or modify his body via drugs or surgery, his right to express his belief should be protected.*

And should all trans be equal?

Is a transvestite the same as a post op transsexual?

There is no longer a surgical requirement for a GRC, so it’s not differentiating between transexuals and transgender people who have retained their original plumbing.

There is very much still an expectation of surgery.

If someone doesn't have surgery they must prove there is a medical reason why not. A person who did not want surgery would not qualify for a GRC.

Okay, so then the suggestion is that "gender reassignment" protection in the EA is limited just to people with a GRC?

Still a fuzzy area though, isn't there? What I suspect was the original intent - you have to "live as a woman" for 2 years to get the GRC, and the protection was intended, I assume, for people in that period.

But maybe that can just be covered by the "sex" discrimination characteristic? I believe like a lot of others that a lot of what transgender people want protection from - and think they get via "gender reassignment" protection - can in fact be obtained via "sex". It's gender non-conformity - doing something that would be permitted for someone of the opposite sex.

@BlueLipstickRocks

I don't see why the Govt don't amend the GRA to allow for non-binary identities. It would make as much sense as the current one; I don't see what the justification is for allowing one nonsensical pretence and not another.

Because it was written for transsexuals with the expectation of reassignment surgery.

The GRA is the differentiator between transsexual and transgender. You may not like it - in not especially keen - but a differentiator is essential.

Why is a differentiator essential?

Can you explain what you think a 'transsexual' person should be allowed to do that a transgender person should not?

Can you explain what you think a 'transsexual' person should be allowed to do that a transgender person should not?

Why should they not?

@BlueLipstickRocks

* If a man believes himself to be a woman, or chooses to give himself a feminine name, or conform to feminine stereotypes by dress or behaviour, or modify his body via drugs or surgery, his right to express his belief should be protected.*

And should all trans be equal?

Is a transvestite the same as a post op transsexual?

Is the Queen different from Joyce who stacks shelves in Tesco?

Women remain women, and men remain men however they present and regardless of any body modifications.

Or, if you prefer, females remain female, and males remain male however they present and regardless of any body modifications.

The GRA is the differentiator between transsexual and transgender. You may not like it - in not especially keen - but a differentiator is essential.

Why? That's not why the GRA was passed. It was in order to create a legal fiction so that two people of the same sex could marry. It is no longer needed.

Many transsexuals don't get a GRC, so it's not seen as the differentiator by them.

Many transsexuals don't get a GRC, so it's not seen as the differentiator by them.

Simply not true - not sure where you got that information from.

And I am transsexual with GRC.

[quote stumbledin]As set out in the response to the Gender Recognition Act consultation, there are no plans to make changes to the 2004 Act.

Following a considerable amount of consultation with the public and representative organisations, the Government decided that the current provisions within the GRA allow for those that wish to legally change their sex to do so fairly.

The 2018 GRA consultation did not bring forward any proposals to extend the GRA to provide legal recognition to a third, or non-binary, gender. The Government noted that there were complex practical consequences for other areas of the law, service provision and public life if provision were to be made for non-binary gender recognition in the GRA.

In UK law individuals are considered to be the sex that is registered on their birth certificate – either male or female. The GRA provides a means for transgender people to change the sex on their birth certificate, but there is currently no provision for those who do not identify as male or female.

This Government wants everybody in the UK to feel safe and confident to be themselves.

We are committed to tackling all forms of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime, and are working with the Home Office on the cross-Government Hate Crime Action Plan. The Government has asked the Law Commission to review the current hate crime legislation, which includes exploring whether homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime should be considered an aggravated offence. We will also take an assessment of local support for hate crime victims and improve reporting and recording of LGBT hate crimes through supporting additional police training.

Following Parliamentary approval on 8th October 2020, voluntary questions on sexual orientation and gender identity were included in the 2021 Census for England and Wales which took place on Sunday 21 March 2021. Final data on sexual orientation and gender identity from the 2021 Census for England and Wales will likely be available from 2023, with initial Census findings planned for publication in March 2022 (timelines subject to change as work progresses). This will help to provide more robust population size estimates for England and Wales than are currently available.

This Government is committed to supporting all LGBT people, tackling discrimination and improving the lives of all citizens.

Cabinet Office
------

This is in response to a petition that I will not link to for fear this thread will get banished to the wastelands of the petition section.

But there is a news story here. uk.news.yahoo.com/non-binary-legal-recognition-too-153914753.html[/quote]
There are a few governments across the world who appear to have sorted this out. As far as I can see complications have been few. The UK has been involved in the race to Mars and regularly copes with the crappiest weather known to mankind. If it can't accept that a few folk are different how on earth can we expect to be part of a part of a clean future? Salt water crocs have nailed about 200,000,000 years. Offended of SW19 has a long way to go.

Or, if you prefer, females remain female, and males remain male however they present and regardless of any body modifications.

In other words "you're all just men".

You cat disagree all you like about rights but the fact remains a transsexual is very different to a transvestite.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Many transsexuals don't get a GRC, so it's not seen as the differentiator by them.

Simply not true - not sure where you got that information from.

And I am transsexual with GRC.

Debbie Hayton, Helen Belcher, Robin Moira White have all said that they don't have GRCs. I'm sure there are many others. I don't know what their reasons are. You could ask them.

And a Hindu may be very different to a Christian, but their religious beliefs have no bearing on whether they should be entitled to appropriate the rights of the opposite sex.

There are a few governments across the world who appear to have sorted this out. As far as I can see complications have been few.

Have the Irish sorted out the problem of male prisoners identifying as women in order to be sent to women's prisons then? Can you post some links?

And a Hindu may be very different to a Christian, but their religious beliefs have no bearing on whether they should be entitled to appropriate the rights of the opposite sex.

That may be but it also doesn't give people rights to decide they are all the same!

I have a right to be differentuated from transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens.

Debbie Hayton, Helen Belcher, Robin Moira White have all said that they don't have GRCs. I'm sure there are many others. I don't know what their reasons are. You could ask them.

I know at least one on that list who wants a GRC but doesn't qualify.

You cat disagree all you like about rights but the fact remains a transsexual is very different to a transvestite.

So I assume you disagree with what Debbie Hayton says in this article: quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

Cross-dressing—or transvestism as it once was called—is more common than some imagine: A 2005 study in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy found that almost three percent of Swedish men reported at least one episode of transvestic fetishism. Of course, this is not the same as being transgender. But since autogynephilia is associated with both the need to dress in women’s clothes and feminize one’s body, we can never fully demarcate the two. (Thus, an old joke in the community about transitioners who start out as occasional cross-dressers: “What’s the difference between a transvestite and a transsexual? About five years.”)

I have a right to be differentuated from transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens.

That's between you and Stonewall. It is not something that should be legislated. It is not the place of the law to define what each faith is or is not.

So I assume you disagree with what Debbie Hayton says in this article:

I entirely disagree with that statement.

Dysphoria and dysmorphia are very different things.