Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

That's why gender identity is all over the mumsnet feminist board. You can't 'do' feminism if you can't define what a woman is and keep men and believers in queer theory out. We wish it were otherwise, we really do.

Gender identity ideology is harmful to women and feminism as it denies the importance of sex, erases or dismisses sex based oppression, and as pp have said, makes it impossible to join the dots.

Just for the record, and I don't post this on every thread because it's irrelevant, but I don't like Jordan Peterson.

Righty ho. That's up to you isn't it. ☺️

Even something like a tag to show that discussion about GC isn't welcome in a thread

Well look, that's an interesting proposition. But by "GC" do you mean "biological sex"? We've had lots of people come in to say "GC Is wrong because it's xyz" where xyz is nothing to do with being gender critical ie believing that sex is real and sometimes it matters.
If not, what specifically do you mean by 'GC'? And do you think different people have different interpretations?

We even get people saying that 'GC means enforcing gender stereotypes' when.... it's the polar opposite!

As we have said, for anyone who supports the op the usual procedure is:
a) Start more threads on topics you want to discuss
b) Contribute more to the threads that do interest you
And / or
c) Approach MNHQ and request your own board.

What is not correct behaviour is to expect other users on what is a well used, fast moving board to move over for you.

It's fully possible to be a feminist without being GC.

No, it isn't. Gender is the basis of women's oppression. Criticism of gender as a framework of regressive sex stereotypes is key to feminism. And gender identity ideology is founded in those stereotypes.

The thing is, OP, even if feminists did get hived away in their own wee quarantined space where they wouldn't bother anyone's eyes, the lurkers and the viewers would follow.

The issue comes up repeatedly because every aspect of women's lives is potentially impacted by the removal and undermining of our rights as defined in the Equality act.

I, also, dislike Jordan Peterson. I mean, not personally. I find his ideas a bit odd and not very insightful.

accused of having some ulterior motive

I understand

But can you not see that it’s exactly what you’ve done to me

I don’t normally get wound up to be honest, but I asked for clarification (not evidence though I appreciate others have) and you don’t want to give it because you’ll be ignored and belittled

But I’ll leave it there, i do understand what you are saying...but I still have no sodding clue what you mean 😀

for you...I’m gonna have cheese and port

Or perhaps you know that gender ideology does actually affect a hell of a lot of feminist topics?

This is the problem, as is the fact that people will post as they see fit. Unless it is relevant, it's probably an offhand comment which can be scrolled past. But many times it is relevant. If you don't agree, challenge it?

Ooopsie

Obviously implying anyone asking...including me...intends to ignore and belittle you

Would have made much more sense if id included that 😀

@CardinalLolzy

Just for the record, and I don't post this on every thread because it's irrelevant, but I don't like Jordan Peterson.

I don’t know who he is....i know he is very marmite

I find it very telling that we're told things I'd call pro-woman - protecting single sex spaces, sports etc - are in fact anti-trans.

While we know many individual TW support women's rights, the constant claims from TRAs that feminism is anti-trans reveals the misogyny that permeates gender ideology.

I find it very telling that we're told things I'd call pro-woman - protecting single sex spaces, sports etc - are in fact anti-trans

It is. Because the two don't go together. The rights that (some) transwomen want, remove women's rights. I think people that frame GC Feminists as anti trans can be accurately be described as anti woman. 🤷

It'd be nice to be able to post about other issues without that concern.

Why is it any concern of yours how other feminist posters frame women's rights issues? Frequently there are relevant points to make. As other pp have said this cuts across every feminist issue.

And also now I guess you have an idea what it's like for feminists in other online spaces constantly coming up against TRA whataboutery when they want to talk about women and girls, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause, periods, gynae cancer, FGM, parenting, endometriosis, sexual abuse, femicide etc etc etc.

It's fully possible to be a feminist without being GC.

I disagree. Gender is the tool the patriarchy employs to keep women down. And it's our sex that is at the root of our oppression. If woman no longer means adult human female then feminism loses its meaning. If anyone can announce they're a woman regardless of sex then the sex pay gap and other stats, including crime figures, become meaningless. If we're not working for AHFs then feminism is nothing.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's fully possible to be a feminist without being GC.

No, it isn't. Gender is the basis of women's oppression. Criticism of gender as a framework of regressive sex stereotypes is key to feminism. And gender identity ideology is founded in those stereotypes.

This

MNHQ have been asked before to either rename this board, or to provide an alternative for feminists who are not GC. They’ve declined, consistently, for years.

The hostility directed at posters on this board who aren’t GC has been escalating for years. It’s beyond satire at this point.

And more than that, there’s a presumption now of posters here being very GC, and that tone is totally off-putting.

Its like sitting at dinner with a load of people all loudly being horrible about people you care about, and you have to keep quiet because otherwise they’re all going to start in on you.

So the non GC posters are long gone, or maybe like me they stick their heads in now and again to see what’s the latest state of things, and whether there are any threads that aren’t denigrating trans people.

I’m not willing to be part of threads that denigrate trans people in general, misgender them, take the piss out them for being trans, call it dangerous nonsense, and so on and so on.

And the vast majority of threads here are like that. Even when they start off not being like that, because the board is overwhelmingly GC, almost all threads cover that angle at some point.

I’d love there to be an active feminism board where threads were not dominated by the GC dogma.

But it’s not going to happen.

That ship has long ago sailed and MNHQ seem content with the situation. Meanwhile, FWR attracts a whole lot of posters and lurkers to mn who are seeking out exactly the sort of community and posts that have driven away trans inclusive women.

Sad, but true.

Even in AIBU now there are things that as soon as the thread starts, you can guarantee it’s going to get swooped on by posters pushing GC dogma.

It again, MMHQ seems content to let that continue.

@TheThermalStair

Thanks *@LibertyMole* *@NiceGerbil* *@Wandawomble* for being willing to discuss this, I really appreciate being able to have the conversation and think it over.

@Helleofabore I think you've mistaken my beliefs and politics tbh. I suppose for me it's as if this was the totally dominant topic on a gay rights board. It's CLEARLY RELEVANT but it's also not the only issue. Like I said in the OP I really do understand why people want to talk about it. It's more that unlike some here I don't necessarily see it as the biggest issue we're facing - I think tbh a lot of this will fade away in time and gender identity issues will be treated like an issue that affects a tiny minority of people, which is what it is. (Waits to be pounced on for being naive etc).

I also get pissed off about people on here slagging off "wokeness" etc because it makes me feel like I'm reading the Daily Mail and feels really crass to do this ignoring the term's origin in anti-racism campaigns. But that's another issue.

•@Helleofabore I think you've mistaken my beliefs and politics tbh. I suppose for me it's as if this was the totally dominant topic on a gay rights board. It's CLEARLY RELEVANT but it's also not the only issue. •

Ahem, genderism is the only major issue that's regularly discussed in my lesbian women's groups and boards because it's absolutely fundamental to our existence as same-sex attracted women. We don't need to discuss employment law or to demand the right to marry or to bemoan the fact that we're second-class citizens because we gained the rights we fought for some time ago — only to have it all come under attack from the genderists. Gay men are increasingly aware of the issue too, and increasingly indignant of being yoked to the TQ+ gender brigade.

I don't want to see Gender stuff hived off separately. Loads of women have come to this forum to discuss something else, then read some of the gender threads and had their eyes opened to something they'd known nothing about.

@PrawnofthePatriarchy

It's fully possible to be a feminist without being GC.

I disagree. Gender is the tool the patriarchy employs to keep women down. And it's our sex that is at the root of our oppression. If woman no longer means adult human female then feminism loses its meaning. If anyone can announce they're a woman regardless of sex then the sex pay gap and other stats, including crime figures, become meaningless. If we're not working for AHFs then feminism is nothing.

This

Gender is the imposition of stereotypes rooted in people’s sexed bodies by society in its simplest form all girls should have long hair, wear pink and like dolls.

Being gender critical is to believe that the imposition of these stereotypes based on sex is wrong

What is the case for feminism that is non gender critical?

Part of the problem is the language used

I don’t think you can have feminism without thinking gender is a load of stereotypical bollocks

But people use the term GC to mean that they are trans haters, want to remove trans rights etc

Its not the same thing

So no....im not GC, not the GC people mean at any rate

@TheThermalStair

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

I think you might be right. Two women in a week die violent deaths, overwhelmingly at the hands of people they know. Normally partners or ex partners from predominantly heterosexual relationships. Targeting mainly trans women in an effort to put a stop to this is most likely not too going to be as effective as some think. By all means criticise trans people but the real battle is with your husbands, your brother's and your sons. In my opinion, a separate gender identity section would ensure those seeking to progress the safety of women across the world weren't bogged down in the intolerance of trans exclusionary bigots hiding under feminism. (Tebhof's).

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Gender is the imposition of stereotypes rooted in people’s sexed bodies by society in its simplest form all girls should have long hair, wear pink and like dolls.

Being gender critical is to believe that the imposition of these stereotypes based on sex is wrong

What is the case for feminism that is non gender critical?

Or this

This sounds better...

Pretend i said this

Here's an act of feminism for posters who aren't happy with the subject matter women on this board discuss - how about heading over to some of those subreddits like Men's Rights, or Jailbait and take them up on their sexism, misogyny and in the case of the latter downright creepy behaviour? What about telling those men how to behave & think & what to discuss? FWR meanwhile is a bunch of women talking about material reality. If it's not the board for you that's fine.

"Reddit faces lawsuit for failing to remove child sexual abuse material"

www.theverge.com/2021/4/25/22399306/reddit-lawsuit-child-sexual-abuse-material-fosta-sesta-section-230

"Researchers analyzed Reddit's most misogynist communities. It's exactly as bad as you thought."

www.wired.com/story/misogyny-reddit-research/

Hey OP I agree I can't stand seeing all the GC posts but do you know what? In my and many many others lives, it is THE most important subject at the moment.

I can't wait for the day when I come on here and there is none! OMG won't it be amazing!!

And for what it's worth I've been on here over 15 years. Regular name changer, especially at the moment!!