Should MN have a Gender Identity (or similar) subsection?

[TheThermalStair]

I used to be a really active member of this board, for years. Similar with real life groups. Now there are very few discussions about most feminist issues, and tonnes and tonnes about trans/gender identity issues.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people are interested in talking about this, on all sides. But I miss discussions about other issues. To me having a feminist board that seems to be 90% gender chat isn't representative of the feminist issues that women face in the UK let alone in the rest of the world. The alternative would be to have a "non trans/gender identity related feminist chat board" but that feels pretty silly. Is it just me that feels this way?

This topic comes up every now and then. Posters complain that the threads in FWR are not to their taste but don't want to start any new threads which are.

It's curious.

I’ve been a feminist all my life and would love not to discuss trans issues on this board. Here’s my experience. Having experienced absolutely horrible sex and pregnancy discrimination relatively early in my career (academia, so I was not exactly young!) I worked hard to improve the position of women in my department. Eventually we established a committee to focus on women. It was designed to look at the challenges women face and see what could be done to share the work and pay more equitably between the men and women in the department. Good. About one year in – a rather unpleasant, relatively senior man in the department, a professor, declared that he was non-binary, and therefore deserved a seat at the table. Worth noting: this man had enjoyed massive male privilege all through his career and had never to the best of anyone’s knowledge ever committed an act that might be considered as pro any of the women in the department. Oh well, no one wants to be a dinosaur, so into the women’s group he comes. Now, two years down the line, it is filled with handmaidens and all they are concerned about is teaching the rest of us that ‘sex is not binary’, writing up purity declarations, and enforcing pronouns in signatures. Pay and workload have slipped off the agenda. The one place where we could focus on sex discrimination in our workplace has been completely undermined. I’d love to talk about the gender pay gap like I used to. We quite literally no longer have the space to do this!

Are there many trans, NB people in the UK? I would agree that there are very few. This man is the only NB person that I know. AND YET, this one person, armed with an extremely powerful ideology, has eviscerated our attempts to take feminist action.

That's why gender identity is all over the mumsnet feminist board. You can't 'do' feminism if you can't define what a woman is and keep men and believers in queer theory out. We wish it were otherwise, we really do.

There are plenty of threads on the front page of FWR that are not about gender identity. There are threads about marriage, women in China, childbirth and unfair judicial treatment of a woman (just for starters).

If you want to see other topics then start some different threads.

am hardly going to bother running off to find examples when I have been here before

Oh I thought it was just because you wouldn't be able to find any that you didn't want to bother. After all it's quite an accusation without some level of evidence. Never mind. My mistake. Evidence is rarely important these days anyway I find.☺️

There are so many forums where Lib Fems are welcome (and encouraged to centre trans women and their needs in almost every other subject to do with feminism). It's not possible in many of those circles to talk about women's physiology and health, maternity, domestic abuse, harassment, prostitution etc etc without having first to check that the language being used is inclusive, to such a degree that it's sometimes not possible to address the actual problem at all. Policing language seems to take precedence over getting things done.

That's why gender identity is all over the mumsnet feminist board. You can't 'do' feminism if you can't define what a woman is

This

Why am I'm beginning to feel like I've heard some of these arguments before:

'We don't like this space. Give it to us.'

'We've worked very hard to build up this space. Why don't you start your own? Some of us might even be able to help you.'

'No we don't want to do that. We want your space.'

I don't think those forums would take much notice of us if we asked them to centre other topics such as GC feminism. Yet the FWR seems to be under constant attack to change. And as it is our speech is carefully moderated. Unlike other forums where they can say the hell what they like about us. As long as they don't centre women's needs and rights they're good to go.

Floisme it does sound familiar doesn't it.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

And yes, I've been here since 2013 ish. Name changed twice, once because it could be linked back to my TES account and once because I was stalked by someone who seemed determined to find me in real life. Now I no longer teach I don't care so much 😊

Are you me? Name changed once, linked to my TES account, now retired from teaching so can’t be sacked for speaking the truth 🤣

@dumpling23

I’ve been a feminist all my life and would love not to discuss trans issues on this board. Here’s my experience. Having experienced absolutely horrible sex and pregnancy discrimination relatively early in my career (academia, so I was not exactly young!) I worked hard to improve the position of women in my department. Eventually we established a committee to focus on women. It was designed to look at the challenges women face and see what could be done to share the work and pay more equitably between the men and women in the department. Good. About one year in – a rather unpleasant, relatively senior man in the department, a professor, declared that he was non-binary, and therefore deserved a seat at the table. Worth noting: this man had enjoyed massive male privilege all through his career and had never to the best of anyone’s knowledge ever committed an act that might be considered as pro any of the women in the department. Oh well, no one wants to be a dinosaur, so into the women’s group he comes. Now, two years down the line, it is filled with handmaidens and all they are concerned about is teaching the rest of us that ‘sex is not binary’, writing up purity declarations, and enforcing pronouns in signatures. Pay and workload have slipped off the agenda. The one place where we could focus on sex discrimination in our workplace has been completely undermined. I’d love to talk about the gender pay gap like I used to. We quite literally no longer have the space to do this!

Are there many trans, NB people in the UK? I would agree that there are very few. This man is the only NB person that I know. AND YET, this one person, armed with an extremely powerful ideology, has eviscerated our attempts to take feminist action.

That's why gender identity is all over the mumsnet feminist board. You can't 'do' feminism if you can't define what a woman is and keep men and believers in queer theory out. We wish it were otherwise, we really do.

Why would someone who declares themselves to be ‘non binary’ want to join a women’s group? Surely that’s misgendering themselves?

@Floisme and @Erikrie I was thinking the same thing.

I'd really support this. I actively avoid the board as every thread I've ever come across seems to be anti-trans, which I'm not. I don't feel able to contribute, where I'd love to be able to join in with other feminist issues without worrying about them being twisted into being a trans related issue. It's not even a case of watching for other threads, but that some posters seem to be obsessed with the subject so I worry about threads that don't start off about it, turning into that. It'd be nice to be able to post about other issues without that concern.

I am not going to pick out examples because its exhausting and boring.

One, out of the many that are apparently all over the forum, is exhausting?
This is an example of where people refuse to engage when they're asked to back up something they've claimed. It's why threads become long-running arguments about arguments, because people think they can just claim anything and not bother about whether it's actually true or not.

I'll leave it there.

how many examples I find I will just be ignored and belittled and assumed to be anti-gc or worse, even though that isn't true

Just for any lurkers reading, i asked my question in good faith, I’ve no idea what sushi meant and I’m no clearer now

I honestly don’t understand how on your average thread someone can ‘ demand you centre gender criticism in your approach to the issue’

@entrytohr

I'd really support this. I actively avoid the board as every thread I've ever come across seems to be anti-trans, which I'm not. I don't feel able to contribute, where I'd love to be able to join in with other feminist issues without worrying about them being twisted into being a trans related issue. It's not even a case of watching for other threads, but that some posters seem to be obsessed with the subject so I worry about threads that don't start off about it, turning into that. It'd be nice to be able to post about other issues without that concern.

I assume you have some sort of filter set up then, that misses what's currently on the first page of FWR: -Giving away at weddings

• The use of the phrase 'openly heterosexual'
• Women in China
• Agoraphobic mum giving birth
• Enid Blyton sex role stereotypes
• porn
• Labour party
• DID
• Mary Beard funding students

-Alex Scott

If you think these 'seem to be anti-trans' I suggest that's down to some kind of perception of yours that doesn't match with mine.
Start your own threads and if it's completely unaffected by gender ideology I don't know why you would assume it'd get derailed? Or perhaps you know that gender ideology does actually affect a hell of a lot of feminist topics?

So no one wants to start other threads

And no one wants to ask site stuff for another subsection...

I'd really support this. I actively avoid the board as every thread I've ever come across seems to be anti-trans, which I'm not

You'd happily support the topics you don't like, (which firmly centre women) being shipped off so that you can use the space for topics you prefer? There's nothing to stop you posting anyway is there. On the interesting topics that you have in mind. Or asking Mumsnet for an Intersectional Feminism forum. But no. I guess that's not enough is it. Not until the very real issues that impact on every part of womens lives is swept away into the corner. Until those pesky GC feminists shut up and go away.

I agree - if you feel that arguments are "anti-trans" and I really don't see these. Then please do argue the case. The FWR board is kind and open to discussion I have found. There are some keen analytical minds here who will ask for arguments to be clearly defined. But no-one should fear that. It is a good thing to be able to be clear about what we are saying. Ultimately on a chat forum there is a variety of opinion, it is all welcome. But on a public chat forum it has to be robust.

So no one wants to start other threads

No they want other people to do that for them so they can decide if it's interesting enough for them to engage with.

And no one wants to ask site stuff for another subsection.

No it's nicer here. It's clean with big windows and nicely decorated. Perfect for intersectional feminism. They just need to get rid of the current occupants. Or make them research and start topics they prefer if the occupants want to remain.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

how many examples I find I will just be ignored and belittled and assumed to be anti-gc or worse, even though that isn't true

Just for any lurkers reading, i asked my question in good faith, I’ve no idea what sushi meant and I’m no clearer now

I honestly don’t understand how on your average thread someone can ‘ demand you centre gender criticism in your approach to the issue’

The thing is Rufus, I've basically given up. I've been here 13 years (under different names) and I just don't have it in me to argue with people who aren't willing to listen.

I wanted to show support to the OP and anyone else lurking who feels the same. Because you will either recognise what I've said and go yup, that does happen (and literally two posts after I said the MRAs are still here using GC to try and convince feminists that Peterson is great someone popped up saying they like him!)

Or you are blind to it. People bring up gender issues inappropriatelyin front of your face and you don't see that actually it wasn't necessary.

I am just going to waste a lot of time and then be accused of having some ulterior motive to shut women up. It doesn't feel like a good faith task to me.

I'd rather have a restful evening and go to work tomorrow and make my impact on women's rights there.

It's the inappropriate bringing up that I was trying to word @SushiGo

Even the thread on women in China (because I did go to look after the reply I got), the second comment is gender identity related.

It's fully possible to be a feminist without being GC. Unless you're on the feminist board it seems.

Even something like a tag to show that discussion about GC isn't welcome in a thread would make me more likely to post, but so many seemingly unrelated topics are derailed that it's massively off putting.

Yes, I’d really like to see a separate board for trans discussions. It does often feel that FWR is dominated by it.

@Maduixa in this Site Stuff thread summed it up perfectly and suggested the same thing.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4183107-Why-is-it-suddenly-ok-to-make-multiple-threads-on-the-same-subject-over-and-over-again?msgid=105446832

Just for the record, and I don't post this on every thread because it's irrelevant, but I don't like Jordan Peterson.

and literally two posts after I said the MRAs are still here using GC to try and convince feminists that Peterson is great someone popped up saying they like him

I came to the conclusion that I liked his work after dedicating a great deal of time watching and reading his work. I doubt you have done the same. I am not a MRA. I'm not a man. I'm a woman who is entitled to her own opinion. Hth.