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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It never stops in West Yorkshire. 29 Men Charged in Connection with Child Sexual Exploitation in Calderdale

222 replies

nickymanchester · 13/05/2021 11:31

This was a press release from West Yorkshire police yesterday:-

www.westyorkshire.police.uk/news-appeals/29-men-charged-connection-child-sexual-exploitation-calderdale

It's connected to historic offences committed against a single victim from 2003 to 2010.

On the plus side, WYP do now seem to be taking these things more seriously but on the down side this is still from more than ten years ago.

Also, what really got to me about this story was that there were 29 men charged for crimes against the same, single victim.

I can't imagine what her life must have been like as a teenager when the offending was taking place.

OP posts:
Packingsoapandwater · 17/05/2021 10:29

[quote awesomekillick]@Packingsoapandwater thanks for your considered response. But it changes nothing. I don't care how finely we slice the population, it changes nothing - Muslim men committed these crimes and to be frank if they are more deprived or less educated than the non crime-committing Muslim men of the area, its irrelevant. You cannot turn this into a matter of class or deprivation when their victims are based on their perceived worthlessness as white girls.

All my life I've been a "woke" liberal, Labour voter and strongly anti racist. But the reality is that no amount of reframing will change the facts here; that the criminals are men first, Muslim second, and poor third. [/quote]
My view is the perceived "worthlessness" will not change until steps are taken to arrest chain migration, particularly of male spouses.

All chain migration does is persistently refuel and reseed these attitudes within the community, because you are reimporting patriarchal, agricultural, bitter attitudes from very poor parts of Pakistan, where language issues mean those migrants are isolated from the way they experience the fabric of British society, so nothing challenges their view of white women and girls.

But the attitudes are not consistent amongst Muslim migrants from the Indian subcontinent as a whole. I have had conversations with young Muslim Kashmiris who have come to West Yorkshire and are flabbergasted by the behaviour of some Muslim males of Pakistani descent. Like "WTF" style astonishment. One lad actually said to me: "how are these people even Muslim?"

Flaxmeadow obviously takes a wider view of the phenomenon, whereas mine is informed by a very specific set of circumstances in my area, so I think that's where we are disagreeing somewhat.

I think it's difficult to truly comprehend just how isolated some of these communities are. I have met women who have lived here for twenty years, barely speak English, and who do not know they have the vote. They don't even realise there are women politicians.

When I look at the problems in our area, they are coming out of these types of community circumstances.

The added issue to this is the nature of the diaspora means there's no subtle social policing: the kind done by neighbours, other family members informing mum of something they've seen etc - - because those connections don't exist or are very disempowered anyway. I remember reading that one wife of a convicted groomer doesn't even know he's in prison; the family have lied to her about it.

So in this climate, these men are just running riot because there's nothing to stop them.

Flaxmeadow · 17/05/2021 11:22

Flaxmeadow obviously takes a wider view of the phenomenon, whereas mine is informed by a very specific set of circumstances in my area, so I think that's where we are disagreeing somewhat.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've repeatedly said that I come from one of these areas in the North too (Grt Manc, West Yorks, South Yorks)

I'm not saying which one, but all three counties are the ground zero of these crimes and all connected by networks of offending

Flaxmeadow · 17/05/2021 11:56

All chain migration does is persistently refuel and reseed these attitudes within the community, because you are reimporting patriarchal, agricultural, bitter attitudes from very poor parts of Pakistan, where language issues mean those migrants are isolated from the way they experience the fabric of British society, so nothing challenges their view of white women and girls

Yes but it isn't just male migration from Pakistan that is so devastating for the women and girls who are victims of these gangs in the North.

Who controls people trafficking into the UK. Who is bringing male migrants into the country illegally, from all over the Muslim world, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, and the middle east? Who are the victims of the gangs sold to by forced prostitution? Who controls heroin trafficking? Who is profiting from this trade in people and class A drugs? Which community is being devastated by it and persistently exploited.

Awkward questions

Flaxmeadow · 17/05/2021 12:03

*awesomekillick,
that the criminals are men first, Muslim second, and poor third

Yes but I disagree with the suggestion that these communities are 'poor'. They are no poorer than white communities in the North, infact I'd say probably wealthier.

andyoldlabour · 17/05/2021 14:23

IheartJKR

"The CSE that has happened and continues to happen by organised groups of men in the uk is a specific type of behaviour from a demographic that is particular and separate from other acts of sexual violence and abuse that are also happening in this country."

Well said, there should be no groups of people who are given an "untouchable" status with regard to these horrific crimes.

awesomekillick · 18/05/2021 09:52

@Packingsoapandwater that's fascinating thank you.

But who is "importing" these men? Other Muslims already here, I assume? And I may be wrong but are not many of the criminals working and capable of speaking English? I sound more racist by the minute sorry - I'm trying to understand.

BlueAgean · 18/05/2021 10:06

I worked in a business support capacity with organisations working on the ground to support victims in Yorkshire. The view 4-5 years ago among some Police and LA staff was still seeing victims as to blame for what they perceived as reckless behaviour or promiscuity and that view was constantly being challenged. It is also shocking the lack of financial support going into these areas to tackle the problem historically.

Childrenofthestones · 18/05/2021 20:18

@BlueAgean

I worked in a business support capacity with organisations working on the ground to support victims in Yorkshire. The view 4-5 years ago among some Police and LA staff was still seeing victims as to blame for what they perceived as reckless behaviour or promiscuity and that view was constantly being challenged. It is also shocking the lack of financial support going into these areas to tackle the problem historically.
That is hardly surprising when it was a Labour Prime minister and home secretary that told the police to ignore the rapes.
ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 20/05/2021 13:06

@Childrenofthestones when did any PM and Home Secretary tell the police to ignore the rapes??? That's quite a big accusation!

I thought jack straw was shouted down as racist for talking about the possible link?

Childrenofthestones · 20/05/2021 15:17

Nazir Afzal, ex Chief Prosecution Officer, speaking on radio 4 on 19th of Oc 2018 said "You may not know this, but back in 2008 the home office sent a circular to all police forces in the country saying -

"As far as these young girls being exploited in towns and cities, we believe they have made an informed choice about their sexual behaviour and therefor it is not for you police officers to get involved in" "If that's the landscape coming from the top down in 2008, rest assured all agencies are going to listen to it."

www.change.org/p/the-british-council-inquiry-gordon-brown-jackie-smith-mp-permitting-sexual-abuse

Would something like this be done without the knowledge of the PM and Home Sec?

FindTheTruth · 20/05/2021 17:31

Wow @Childrenofthestones that home office circular could have been written by sex traffickers.

ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 20/05/2021 18:34

@Childrenofthestones thank you. That's horrifying.

Even written down I struggle to accept the home office advocated not taking action about adult men having sex with underage girls. That they accepted something their own laws deems not possible as possible.

I can't think of another situation where that could or has happened (so expressly).

Childrenofthestones · 20/05/2021 18:58

A few weeks ago I saw Jackie Smith on Good Morning Britain saying we need to do more to stop violence against women and girls.

I still cant get the coffee out of my duvet covert.

Susannahmoody · 20/05/2021 19:13

Who controls people trafficking into the UK. Who is bringing male migrants into the country illegally, from all over the Muslim world, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, and the middle east?

^

I'll guess that it's men?

Also, FWIW, these men of Pakistani /Bangladeshi heritage in the North West are often not recent migrants. They're 3rd generation. Which raises questions regarding their unsuccessful integration : due to their reluctance to integrate, but perhaps also cultural and social regression? And because it's a tricky conversation, there's a lack of politicians /police interference.

Susannahmoody · 20/05/2021 19:16

I think it's difficult to truly comprehend just how isolated some of these communities are. I have met women who have lived here for twenty years, barely speak English, and who do not know they have the vote. They don't even realise there are women politicians.

^

Can attest to this. Yes, they may not like it in the Home Counties but come up to Keighley/Blackburn / Bradford and you'll see otherwise!

ThinkAboutItTomorrow · 20/05/2021 20:19

How does that work if they moved here from Pakistan where they had Benazir Bhutto?

Why the surprise at female politicians when they have them in their country of birth?

Flaxmeadow · 20/05/2021 21:09

Yes, they may not like it in the Home Counties but come up to Keighley/Blackburn / Bradford and you'll see otherwise!

Yes and the Metropolitan chattering class, who never get to meet amd understand working class women up North. Working class women of both English and Pakistani heritage

Childrenofthestones · 21/05/2021 11:32

[quote ThinkAboutItTomorrow]@Childrenofthestones when did any PM and Home Secretary tell the police to ignore the rapes??? That's quite a big accusation!

I thought jack straw was shouted down as racist for talking about the possible link? [/quote]
Jack Straw, like everybody else on the left, was dragged kicking and screaming into admitting what was going on. He was condemned by others on the left when he stated that there was a "specific problem" in some areas of the country and we need to get the Pakistani community to think about it much more clearly.

He also was roundly condemned for saying Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat."
The quote was the reason "Easy Meat" was then used by the author of the first book written on the scandal.

Thecatonthemat · 21/05/2021 12:29

I really hope that abusers in prison are not able to contact girls in secure accommodation as happened to my knowledge in the 90s. They were waiting for them even then.

FindTheTruth · 21/05/2021 13:59

I hope that no man is able to contact girls in secure accommodation

Flaxmeadow · 04/06/2021 00:24

Another trial (gang from Huddersfield) in the news this week. Leeds Crown Court

Flaxmeadow · 04/06/2021 00:34

Sorry, that should read local news, because most of these trials dont even make the national news

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