GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

I don’t think logicing is a word

He's not going to answer is he....I want to read my book too! watch Below Deck

@stonecat

Never existed.

I'm on the phone to my granny now @ool0n

I'll ask her from you how many transwomen were floating about in the loos when she was a young woman. She's 94.

The trans population is minuscule. The gender fluid crowd, that's another issue. That's where we're going to invite problems.

If Dora Richter had survived the Nazis she'd be 130 now, and the oldest woman alive ever so not very likely. But the point is even post-op trans women have existed all your Grannies life. Back before the 60s trans women in the UK could change their birth certificate with no complicated process at all. No medical "proof", just a simple change in court, self ID... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Richter

@lonel

He's not going to answer is he....I want to read my book too! watch Below Deck

Is below deck any good?

recent thread
"But more than two hours away, at the Central California Women’s Facility in Chowchilla, there’s fear. Inmates say guards have warned them that “men are coming” and to expect sexual violence."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4212959-Inmates-say-guards-have-warned-them-that-men-are-coming-and-to-expect-sexual-violence

@BlueLipstickRocks

Maybe, just maybe, self ID isn't the disaster the gender critical movement claim it will be?

It already is a disaster. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not happening.

Why can't any of you provide a single statistic that demonstrates this "disaster" then?

Maybe, just maybe, self ID isn't the disaster the gender critical movement claim it will be?
No you moron it's not a disaster, it's worse than that.

But the point is even post-op trans women have existed all your Grannies life.

We aren't talking about post op trans we are talking about the entire transgender umbrella and a majority that are self ID. Just under 0.5% are post op transsexuals.

[quote stonecat]@ool0n

I don't want to go down the road in the first place to find out.

When it comes to safeguarding, we don't trial things first and see what happens. We prevent the bad shit from ever happening as best we can.

Those countries want to run the experiment? That's their choice. I'm sure there are no shortage of women living there who are pushing against it. [/quote]
First rule of safeguarding right there - we don’t trial things and see what happens. We think of the bad shit and devise rules and policies that prevent the bad shit.

Like not allowing men in certain spaces for the safety of women and children.

Is below deck any good?
I don't think good is the word. Annoyingly addictive!

Sex does not equal gender by the definition you are using so can you try again to answer the question re: why women might prefer single-sex toilets and other spaces?

Given that you try to be a feminist ally, I also would be interested to know how you think we can protect women from the on-going issues such as poorer outcomes in many healthcare situations because of the disproportionate research conducted on male bodies, if we change the definition of women to include male-bodied people? You seem very keen on data, which is great as long as we also recognise the gaps in that data (e.g. what women think and want) and don't draw strong conclusions before filling the gaps. Can you tell me how we can get good data which reports the experience of people experiencing sex-based oppression (females) if we have changed the concept of 'female' away from the characteristics which lead to sex-based oppression?

Why can't any of you provide a single statistic that demonstrates this "disaster" then

I’m basically just here for bernard

@lonel

Is below deck any good? I don't think good is the word. Annoyingly addictive!

Aaahhh

I might start it then

Why can't any of you provide a single statistic that demonstrates this "disaster" then?

They have. You just like to dismiss them because they disagree with you.

@ChewtonRoad

Maybe, just maybe, self ID isn't the disaster the gender critical movement claim it will be? No you moron it's not a disaster, it's worse than that.

Provide a single statistic from a country with self ID that demonstrates that then? What about Iceland, the country with the best gender equality metrics in the world, is a "disaster" now they have self ID?

For someone with no answers you have a lot of questions

That was for ool not stone

@BlueLipstickRocks

Why can't any of you provide a single statistic that demonstrates this "disaster" then?

They have. You just like to dismiss them because they disagree with you.

I find gender critical people like to use the term "gaslighting" a lot, this isn't it, but it is certainly not true. You cited one person in Canada. When asked for stats that show Canadian women are suffering from self ID, introduced there 5+ years ago, you provided nothing. There are no stats.

Provide a single statistic from a country with self ID that demonstrates that then?
Here are three: Barbie Kardashian, Karen White, Jessica Yaniv.

Single sex toilets certainly do exist. I have used them many times.
I have also been in both a Ladies loo (Selfridges) and a women’s changing room (John Lewis lingerie department) when a transwoman came in. Both times the places were full, and there was a visible frisson as the male person came in, some sidelong glances and discomfort, but nobody said anything.
In the lingerie department two assistants ushered the transwoman into a cubicle , not something that was happening with the women.
Neither time did I feel unsafe, because there were many other people queuing. I still really didn’t like it though. It was uncomfortable. Most women do not like male people in places which they expect to be single sex. My teenage dc do not want to use mixed sex spaces- are you saying my young daughter should just put up with not using loos or changing rooms ? What on earth is wrong with you that you are deliberately ignoring this ? You must deeply hate women.

It doesn't make you wonder at all why there are no stats showing decreased outcomes for women in Argentina, which passed its self ID law over 10 years ago?

Things certainly haven't improved:
www.pri.org/stories/2019-07-12/these-argentine-women-fight-against-justice-system-written-men-men