GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

[quote spoonrider]@justawoman76 "Are you HONESTLY suggesting that is it truly possible for a human being to change their sex? Sex IS immutable. Sex is binary."

I'm saying that sex is defined by 5 factors: gonads, genitals, genetics, hormones, hormone-induced physiology.

I'm saying that 3 of those factors can be altered, one can be nulled, and the other one is never encountered in day-to-day life. I'm also saying that the earlier you transition, the more the hormone-induced physiology of your target sex changes to match.

If you think sex is a simple monolith then you are using simplistic thinking worthy of a sixth-former.

But please, carry on talking about intersex folk as if I mentioned them.[/quote]
Well, gonads, genitals are the same thing, essentially.

Hormones and hormone induced physiology go hand in hand.

The first can be changed, remodelled or replaced - for the most part

The second can be artificially changed.

That's soft tissue and bony protuberances again - secondary characteristics.

And the body won't continue to produce the ingested hormones once ingestion ceases. So that's temporary.

And yes, I do know about HRT.

And that all of that ^^ has been simplified, but you don't seem to be understanding it, so I am trying again.

*Ah, I see you mean Performative Emphasising. Of course, I'm not emphasising if I don't make a big show and tell of it.

If you need it on the record: that's absolutely awful. No woman should ever feel afraid, let alone experience violence.*

Gee, thanks.

How’s the thread turning out for you, op?

Nice start to the weekend?

"Altered" and "nulled" do not mean "become the opposite sex". A male with altered genitals and gonads is an altered male. A male with nulled hormones is a male lacking male hormones.

People encounter their sex determining genetics regularly, due to encountering conditions that only affect one sex or the other (pcos, endo, prostate cancer), due to encountering fertility issues, each time a woman is pregnant...

Ooh! Scientific word salad!

Ah, I see you mean Performative Emphasising. Of course, I'm not emphasising if I don't make a big show and tell of it.

I think you mean empathising.

Not you, obviously, Assassinated 😀

[quote spoonrider]@CuriousaboutSamphire" And that all of that ^^ has been simplified, but you don't seem to be understanding it, so I am trying again."

and your final point is... what?[/quote]
That you have only a simplistic understanding of the physiological issues you are trying to discuss.

I wasn't being cryptic.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Ooh! Scientific word salad!

I like picking the fact croutons out of a word salad, they’re lovely and crunchy. But they’re not substantial. You still need a heartier, fact based stew to fill you up.

Stop! In real life I have croutons in the oven, slowly drying.

I am not joking... they have about another 10 minutes to go 😊

And they say only men can be tedious pedants...

You've clearly never been to Pedants Corner on here.

*THAT ridiculously simplistic sixth-form style alive/dead binary?

You amazingly got the point, well done. Are you seriously going to argue that alive/dead isn't a binary category just because there are edge cases?

(Also please find me an example of any category outside of the realm of pure mathematics that has no edge cases.)

I hope you answer the question about Bernie!

Grin

Seriously, that's two in a row for patronising mansplaining.
And they say only men, mansplain.

Honestly, I don't care. I didn't post expecting empathy, although lots did immediately appear. Not from you.

Your later sarcasm comes across as minimising violence against women. I don't think you get it.

If I’m thinking about the right poster, and curious does what I think she does for a living, I am pmsl 🤣

If you need it on the record: that's absolutely awful. No woman should ever feel afraid, let alone experience violence.

You know that is the first time, in years, I have heard a TRA ever say anything to empathise with women. EVER.

Thanks. I mean that, it's depressing to think that all those people on Twitter genuinely dgaf about women and women's experiences. That was a rare glimmer of humanity.

Sorry, smellycats, I keep managing to post immediately after you do, when you’re making a serious point and I’m not. Apologies!