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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Trans Widows Escape Committee 5: And so it continues...

983 replies

TinselAngel · 04/05/2021 21:25

Welcome to thread 5. A virtual prize for anyone who can guess the geeky sci fi reference in the thread title.

This is a support area for women who are, or have been, in unhappy relationships with male partners who are transitioning, or exploring their "gender identity"

If you are in that position-

  1. You are not alone
  2. It is not a situation that you should be expected to tolerate, let alone celebrate.
  3. There is always a way out, if you want it. The thread is called Escape Committee for that reason


Remember: women talking to each other is a powerful weapon!

In four years we have gone from starting the first thread, to launching a website, to be invited to give evidence to a government inquiry, which is pretty spectacular when you think about it.

Thanks to all the women who have told their stories and particularly to those who have stuck around to help others. Thanks also to @socialworker222 who remains nice cop, to my stern cop.

Do say hello to start the thread off!
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TinselAngel · 26/05/2021 14:07

If women take Morris and Morris's ilk's accounts at face value, I'm not sure these threads have have done the job I hoped they had.

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socialworker222 · 26/05/2021 14:16

Can you point us in the direction of her interview Asking. I can't find anything...

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Cailleach1 · 26/05/2021 14:24

True, Tinsel. However, I find it interesting that J Morris was so convinced that people were completely unaware that it could ever have been anything other than a woman in their presence. I have to add this is a reference to JM's embodiment prior to the 'so called sex change' (as Elizabeth Morris herself said).

I must admit I love wild, curly hair. It reminds me of Brian May.

twitter.com/DrBrianMay/photo

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TinselAngel · 26/05/2021 15:27

@SouthernTW

I have no words that are printable.

Having to deal with the stbx and his family this weekend for one last familial commitment. Can't go into details because they are too identifying. I think I shall start playing the lottery so that I can be independently wealthy and just disappear where stbx can't find us.

Have you come up with any strategies for how you're going to manage on the day Southern? It might be a good idea to prepare some responses to the questions you may be likely to be asked.
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AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 26/05/2021 15:46

@socialworker222

Can you point us in the direction of her interview Asking. I can't find anything...

Sorry, it was a while ago and not on the internet. I would be surprised if a recording is available, even. (I'm not sure the internet as we know it really existed then!)

She struck me as a sensible person, if that is any help? It didn't make any of my bullshit detectors twitch.
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TinselAngel · 26/05/2021 17:13

She struck me as a sensible person, if that is any help? It didn't make any of my bullshit detectors twitch.

I'm really not sure what point you're making here.

We could do without "Not my Nigella" on this thread. Please assume that our experiences are the norm rather than the exception. Goodness knows there's plenty of evidence now to support that.

Women need to give us the benefit of the doubt, even if it concerns an individual they admire, as we are the experts.

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KickingBishopBrennanUpTheArrse · 26/05/2021 20:30

I'm not really interested in celebrating any late onset trans identified males or their seemingly accepting but generally muted wives on this thread either. It suggests the experience of all the women here is unusual.

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socialworker222 · 26/05/2021 22:58

I guess the bottom line is that Morris' wife stayed, which is ultimately more to do with her acceptance of the 'wrong body' idea and of the ability to change sex than how he handled it. I doubt many women here are considering leaving, or left, only because our exs behaved generally so poorly. I for one would not have stayed even if my ex had behaved better as fundamentally I didn't buy it, and didn't want a relationship with a middle-aged man playing 'female' and deluding himself that he was a woman. However a man handles it the women who stay do so because they believe what the man tells them about the necessity of doing it, and they opt to be a part of it. Those relationships are endlessly promoted and celebrated elsewhere. This thread is where the sceptical, unconvinced, unhappy and devastated women speak their experiences. So whether Morris - mainly by his own report - treated his particular spouse slightly less badly, isnt really relevant to the remit of this thread.

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themiserychick · 27/05/2021 00:03

"I doubt many women here are considering leaving, or left, only because our exs behaved generally so poorly."

I feel like I'm in the minority here because my 'partner' isn't a narcissist abuser. He has mental health issues which he thinks will be solved by transitioning. I don't believe that this will help him.

I think that I'm mostly over my mental breakdown and the sicknesses I had, so I've started looking for a new job. Once I have employment I can look at moving out of my parents house with my children, and my partner will then be my ex. Yes he does a lot of childcare and household chores, and he's generally a nice, good person, but it doesn't change the fact that he wants to become a woman, or the fact that he's been unemployed for years. The trans stuff was the breaking point.

I'm here because I hate that women are encouraged to stay, and that we're told that the transitioning person is still the same (they're not). I suppose some people are genuinely happy and supportive of a partner who suddenly wants to transition, but I doubt that they're in the majority.

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Clymene · 27/05/2021 04:49

I don't usually post on this thread but I just wanted to add that recall one of Morris's children saying that their father would spend Christmas Day in their study, only coming out when Margaret called to say lunch was ready and then returning afterwards. I thought that was quite a telling vignette about the dynamic in the family.

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socialworker222 · 27/05/2021 07:42

I should have added that not all women stay because they believe the ideology. Many of course stay because of finances, children or other pressures which didn't apply to the affluent and privileged Morrises.
I'm here because I hate that women are encouraged to stay, and that we're told that the transitioning person is still the same (they're not... Beautifully summarised Chick.

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ProfessorInkling · 27/05/2021 08:29

I posted years and name changes ago.

I stayed with my AGP ex because I was embarrassed, financially dependant, felt I couldn’t ruin our family. I told one friend who didn’t really get it and downplayed it. I went to Relate (he refused) and they downplayed it. As long as he’s doing it while you’re not there, what’s the harm?

I bought into that because he was a great father, and at times still a good partner - conversational, funny, pulled his weight, gave me freedom to have as much of a life outside the home as I wanted.

Inside I felt anxious, alone, confused. I was physically pretty repulsed by him and yet felt guilty about this. Poor man. God what a thing to struggle with. I wish I could help him. Etc etc. Sex was out of the question and we didn’t kiss either. A brief hug upon leaving/returning, felt like going through the motions. He was completely alien to me.

I’ll come back and add to this if I’m welcome to, I need to go 😬

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TinselAngel · 27/05/2021 08:33

I'm here because I hate that women are encouraged to stay, and that we're told that the transitioning person is still the same (they're not).

I don't think you're necessarily in a minority themiserychick your experience sounds similar to mine in some ways.

What you describe above I think of as "Schrödingers transitioner" they're simultaneously "exactly the same" if they want you to stay, but "completely different and a new person" in all other contexts.

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TinselAngel · 27/05/2021 08:39

@ProfessorInkling

I posted years and name changes ago.

I stayed with my AGP ex because I was embarrassed, financially dependant, felt I couldn’t ruin our family. I told one friend who didn’t really get it and downplayed it. I went to Relate (he refused) and they downplayed it. As long as he’s doing it while you’re not there, what’s the harm?

I bought into that because he was a great father, and at times still a good partner - conversational, funny, pulled his weight, gave me freedom to have as much of a life outside the home as I wanted.

Inside I felt anxious, alone, confused. I was physically pretty repulsed by him and yet felt guilty about this. Poor man. God what a thing to struggle with. I wish I could help him. Etc etc. Sex was out of the question and we didn’t kiss either. A brief hug upon leaving/returning, felt like going through the motions. He was completely alien to me.

I’ll come back and add to this if I’m welcome to, I need to go 😬

I'd love to hear more about how and when you decided to leave and what has happened since Thanks
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Barracker · 27/05/2021 09:35

I've never dropped in before, but just wanted to offer my support to you all.

I hope that one day, all women whose partners enact psychological abuse upon them are met with unwaveringly honest support from society, of the variety that acknowledges the fundamental truth of the matter. A man, abusing a woman and his children, through lies and gaslighting.

Imagine that. Being able to walk away into a society that says "can't believe he did this awful thing to you, what a preposterous lie he tried to make you collude with. Everyone can see it's abusive. You deserve so much better."

Instead of, well, what we have now.

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ProfessorInkling · 27/05/2021 10:34

Thanks, Tinsel. Here goes!

I stayed for five years after finding out he was an AGP. Not trans though? I still don't really understand.

This all came out in the same six-month period that my sibling transitioned, age 38, out of the blue. Sibling was always a narcissist and we didn't have much of a relationship anyway but the whole thing just made me feel numb.

I'd lost a lot of weight after having my youngest child and XP encouraged me to shop for new clothes, and I wondered if that was a way of living vicariously? So I comfort ate and cut my long hair off. I was so unhappy and felt completely trapped. He was remorseful and promised not to dress up or buy things, he wanted me, the kids...blah blah blah.

We moved house, the kids started school, I went back to work, and slowly slowly began to figure out my own identity again. Meanwhile he withdrew more from me and the kids - I look back now and think how quiet life was, two people co-existing but not really communicating, it was stale and airless. I would freeze in bed with him, we never had any physical contact and I wore pyjamas, I was never undressed in front of him I couldn't bear the idea.

Anyway I eventually confided in a couple of other friends who were suitably horrified and validated my own feelings. Found threads on here. Realised I wasn't alone. I remember one woman posting about her husband who sounded similar to mine but who didn't stop dressing up and shopping - and at first did it in secret, then not in secret but at least when she wasn't there, and then finally wearing a fucking nightie to bed with her. I knew I had to leave, I still didn't really know how to. The final straw was telling another friend, who I had expected to tell me I should stay. I don't know why, now, but at the time I thought she'd advocate staying together and working it out. She didn't, she said she had no idea why I was with him after all that and that I deserved happiness - hearing it from her made me believe for the first time that I actually could do it.

And that was that, I told him within days of talking to that friend, he spent 24 hours begging me to change my mind before leaving for his parents. He spent the next six months texting me, telling me I was handling 'this' badly, there was another way, whatever it takes... etc etc. Maybe he was genuine. Or wanted to be, anyway. I feel sorry for him.

So, that was nearly three years ago, I threw myself into the dating game quite quickly to see if I was repulsed by all men or just him, turns out it was just him, phew!

He was logged into various online shops on the family PC and for a while I monitored his purchases, all hideous tacky women's clothing and underwear, then I logged out and haven't looked since.

I guess I am not a transwidow. He didn't talk about wanting to be a woman. It was just sexual. How can anyone compete when what's in someone else's head is just their own vision of themselves? I don't really understand that level of self-obsession.

And then there's my aforementioned sibling. Or brother, as I call him. He told me I wasn't allowed to tell my children that I grew up with a brother (they have never met him). He wasn't a boy, and isn't a man. Etc etc. Naval gazing. Self-absorbed. Me me me, all of them.

I just hope my kids never find out. But one day they'll probably want a bit more than 'me and daddy just grew apart' as an explanation. And I'm the bad guy to them, I made their dad leave. But my god I feel free.

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AngelicInnocent · 27/05/2021 10:53

I'm fairly new to the FWR board (relatively speaking) and have only just moved onto looking at some of the threads which don't directly affect me.

I just want to say that I am in awe of all you amazing lot. Leaving and divorcing are hard enough for most people, adding in the crap that you have all had to deal with on top just shows how strong you all are even if you don't always feel it.

Flowers to you all.

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TinselAngel · 27/05/2021 11:05

@Barracker

I've never dropped in before, but just wanted to offer my support to you all.

I hope that one day, all women whose partners enact psychological abuse upon them are met with unwaveringly honest support from society, of the variety that acknowledges the fundamental truth of the matter. A man, abusing a woman and his children, through lies and gaslighting.

Imagine that. Being able to walk away into a society that says "can't believe he did this awful thing to you, what a preposterous lie he tried to make you collude with. Everyone can see it's abusive. You deserve so much better."

Instead of, well, what we have now.

Thanks Barracker, it seems a good opportunity to re-share this by Dr Em

uncommongroundmedia.com/domestic-abuse-related-to-late-transitioning-partners-part-i-coercive-control/
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TinselAngel · 27/05/2021 12:24

Thanks for sharing your story ProfessorInkling, I include wives of AGPs under the trans widow umbrella because the only difference is whether the behaviour is public or semi private.

Even Stonewall include cross dressers under the trans umbrella so I see no reason why we can't.

Leaving is so hard but it is so worth it Thanks

I hope your story will inspire other women who may be reading this and trying to work out how to leave. Telling close friends is definitely important.

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SeasideM · 27/05/2021 15:48

@ProfessorInkling I appreciate you checking back in and sharing. My situation is quite similar. The build up was a bit more gradual and like you once the AGP was only at home when I wasn’t there I tried to just let him be happy with that. My timeline starts to all blend in my mind...but like the post you saw ages ago that got you to realize you needed to leave...that started happening as well. I just shrank and avoided him as much as possible. Him signing a holiday card with nice words then signed with “both” names just completely extinguished my feelings.

It has since escalated again to hormones and endless clothes shopping and full time time announcement of being a woman. I’d have done well to get out at any of the prior stages. Seeing the stories from other women such as yourself helps us see the patterns and make an isolating experience less so.

Flowers thank you

As @TinselAngel

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SeasideM · 27/05/2021 16:47

Whoops I think my last thought was something about echoing the hope @TinselAngel stated and confirming that inspiration has been found here.

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QuinnMovesOn · 27/05/2021 17:53

I think Tinsel posted this some time ago?

Q: What's the difference between a guy who is into cross dressing and a transgender man starting to transition?

A: About two years.

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highame · 27/05/2021 18:25

My support as always Flowers

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SouthernTW · 27/05/2021 19:54

Trying to catch up. My daughter got ill while we were out of town at MIL's with stbx. No one really asked about the divorce. Such a crazy dysfunctional way to live. Just sweep any problems under the rug and pretend to make nice. Another reason why stbx probably doesn't know how to deal with his issues.

When asked, I tell people he left us. That's true. He chose his "transition activities" as he likes to call them over his family. Very few people have asked why and as one friend told me (who does actually know) everyone who knows me already knows it's his "fault" because I'm the type that only a few reasons would make me willing to walk away. I have had long discussions with my therapist on how to frame this. It's not the typical divorce situation where one has to admit even a sliver of responsibility for contributing to the demise of a marriage. I keep struggling with the deception from the beginning (if he had only once admitted that he had cross-dressed before we met) and even the question of why did he pick me. I am not the type to ever find this acceptable, so why not find someone who may have been more accepting of such things? You all probably wouldn't hang out with me in real life as I would likely be too conservative and religious.

I feel like my timeline has been fairly quick. The stories of other TWs aided in the speed because there was no way I was going to live under the abusive conditions that so many other TWs have. Many thanks to @TinselAngel and the others who maintain the path for us.
Stbx disclosed in late August and still hasn't "come out" publicly and hopefully the divorce will be finalized by the end of this year (papers being filed next week). But I literally laughed when he told me. My response from the get-go was "you can wear whatever you want, but that doesn't make a man a women." I often wonder why he hasn't yet told anyone in real life. Maybe there is some rational side of him left that feels the shame?

Apparently, I was a TERF before I knew what that meant. Part of me thinks that finding a way to live with the AGP is negotiable, but then I read how it usually just ends up being a slippery slope. And this insistence on TWAW is just the height of ridiculousness and this bs that somehow the person is the same and was "always" there is pure lunacy. He attempted to say that maybe one day the kids would also call him mom. Over my dead body.

@ProfessorInkling- they may not know it, but that freedom is much better for your kids.

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SouthernTW · 27/05/2021 19:56

@SeasideM- remind me again, are you still living with him?

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