Trans Widows Escape Committee 5: And so it continues...

[TinselAngel]

Welcome to thread 5. A virtual prize for anyone who can guess the geeky sci fi reference in the thread title.

This is a support area for women who are, or have been, in unhappy relationships with male partners who are transitioning, or exploring their "gender identity"

If you are in that position-

1. You are not alone
2. It is not a situation that you should be expected to tolerate, let alone celebrate.
3. There is always a way out, if you want it. The thread is called Escape Committee for that reason

Remember: women talking to each other is a powerful weapon!

In four years we have gone from starting the first thread, to launching a website, to be invited to give evidence to a government inquiry, which is pretty spectacular when you think about it.

Thanks to all the women who have told their stories and particularly to those who have stuck around to help others. Thanks also to @socialworker222 who remains nice cop, to my stern cop.

Do say hello to start the thread off!

@RebelliousCow Can you Tweet the same content? I am at STranswidows on Twitter.

@TinselAngel Sorry but I just read this about your double mastectomy. He sounds awful!

Sorry that was meant for talkingdeadscot! Not the OP

sorry - I don't use twitter. I can only imagine that what i had posted was a little too close to the truth for some.

I haven't had a mastectomy!

No it was meant for another poster. @talkingdeadscot sorry.

Hello there.

I'm really happy to have found this forum as I don't have anywhere to go to say how I'm feeling without being responded to as though I'm an evil bigot who is losing my grip on reality. I feel like I'm in 1984.

My now ex-partner and father of my 5 year old daughter is having his first appointment at a gender clinic on Monday. He's been on the waiting list for 3 years.

I just don't know what to do. We can't afford to move out of this home, although at the moment he is staying at a friends in order for us to have space and especially to protect our daughter. I cannot bear being around him. It is like he has become a completely different person. He is furious or nonplussed (or a strange mix of both) about the fact that I don't believe it is possible that he is a woman, I can't perceive him as such and that I am passionate about women's sex-based rights, especially for my daughter's sake. He calls me every name under the sun for not seeing us both as the same thing. He hates any talk about women's rights or even trans rights. I know more about the trans rights movement than he does. He doesn't want to hear the reality for anybody. All he talks about is how sexy he looks, how much he wants breasts, and there is a distinctly fetishised nature to his particular case. And he is flaunting this in front of our daughter. Not only that, he ignores her now. I have to almost shout at him to snap him out of his strange trance-like reveries so that he will listen to her. It's heartbreaking to see and I'm filled with hatred and resentment for him because he couldn't care less about our daughter or me (although that ship has sailed). If I ever mention that I am concerned that he ignores our daughter or doesn't care about her, every time without fail, he says he is putting himself first for a change. It is unbelievably juvenile, narcissistic and heartless.

I'd like to add, this isn't somebody who has felt that he has always been a woman. This is a person who was a crossdresser for about a year as a teenager, didn't dress or even think about it (which he still maintains) for his entire adult life until he was forced to stay at home through Covid when he suddenly decided he was a woman before just as suddenly saying it was just a mental breakdown, before now around 3 years later, suddenly deciding he is a woman again, although this time with a deeply concerning fetishised edge to his behaviours and speech.

I'm angry for me, I'm angry for my daughter, I'm angry for all the people on this waiting list who need this service and have to wait behind somebody like him.

He never was this person. I don't know who he is now. I don't know where he has gone. I'm scared for me and my daughter and worst of all, I am not allowed to say any of this.

What is going on?

Dear @LilithArtemis You will find comfort, reassurance that you are not going mad (he is already mad) and practical advice, both financial and psychological advice, here. @TinselAngel has a website called www.transwidowsvoices.org. Mine is www.transwidows.com. There is room for many more in years to come, I hope! There are also useful Twitter accounts. Mine is "at STranswidows" and hers is "at Transwidows". I find Twitter a really useful place to learn and make new connections.
Our approach is called "gender critical" because we think that "gender" is a cult or "religious" belief: no one can change sex, and the word "gender" has been used to confuse people, most seriously in the Gender Recognition Act 2004. Unfortunately Google censors us with our traditional views so it is really difficult to bring up GC sites, but Mumsnet does have excellent GC threads. You may have read about campaigning groups like www.sex-matters.org and www.womensrights.network which really helped me.
First of all, he is not coming back emotionally. He is weak in the head - my now dead trans ex-H toyed for almost all his adult life with himself and only himself. It is a sexual fetish (Prof Sheila Jeffreys). He told no one what he was thinking about until he was ready to leave us (me and two children aged 10 and 12). When I met him he had two failed marriages before me - yes, big red flag, but I had no way to find out why because only a psychiatrist would have picked up the small clues he dropped.
Practical things: do you have a separate income or earnings? Do you have a share in your home? Can you change the locks and keep him out? You say that he is your ex-partner: have you consulted a solicitor to work out a financial separation and terms for permanent separation?
Lastly I would not encourage contact between your daughter and him. He is taking a drug called estrogen which is why he has "trance-like reveries". I have a photo of my trans dead ex-H in the year before he left: his eyes are pink, he slouches, his hair is shoulder length and he is not paying any attention to us, his family sitting around him. He is a "zombie".
You have the strength to face the truth. He doesn't.
Lots of hugs.
Una

@Scientistranswidow , thank you so much for your reply. It really means a lot as I'm so alone in not only my experience but also how I feel about the severity of all of this. You have made me feel less alone.

Thank you also for the resources, I have found it hard to get to things that aren't extremist and are more balanced. And as you say, so much is censored which freaks me out. It is the very fact that people are not allowed to say what everybody is thinking, obvious facts, especially when it puts women and children in danger, that concerns me so deeply. How can people let all this go?

I agree that this is akin to a religious cult and I have theories that people have a religious desire that is being filled in strange ways for these people. I'm a history student and I'm very interested in the reformation amongst other things. The behaviour and rhetoric is almost identical to these periods of religious turmoil. And it leads to not allowing anybody to speak out about any tiny part of this ideology.

I have been doing a lot of research and compiling what I can, including random tweets and comments that people make. My hope is that when my situation is more settled, I can be brave enough to join the fight for my daughter's sake.

I am sorry to hear about the situation that you were in. It is surprising and upsetting to see the striking similarities in these cases and how these men behave. And what is worse, society supports this complete rejection of responsibility. Zombie is definitely the right word. He isn't even on hormones yet and he is already like this. I can only imagine it will get worse.

Practically, I have many concerns and he takes advantage of them. Firstly, I am autistic and struggle to cope with a lot of practical things which has led me to being very reliant on him. It has been a struggle to regain my independence as he facilitated this and used it to get away with his behaviours. I also have a stake in this debate as I am very concerned how many autistic people are being taken into this process. I am a stay-at-home mum and am studying for my degree from home. I don't have any money of my own and rely on his income. This is something I am trying to rectify by finding ways of making money myself, but it will take a long time. We can't afford to move, although we rent so we don't share a mortgage or anything. We are also unmarried so there are less legal implications. But we are practically bound, especially as we found this house to be in reach of our daughter's new school (which is the real transition I should be focused on right now). So we can't move, at least right now. However, he keeps coming into the house saying that it is his house too. I feel completely trapped. The ridiculous thing is, I am in this situation because I am a woman and he is free because he is not one.

About his contact with our daughter, I just don't know how to approach it. I am demonised for worrying about the effect of all of this on her which is absolutely ludicrous. I also don't want to take her dad away from her, I don't think she would thank me for that, but I am deeply concerned. Currently, especially as he is not living as a woman yet, I am supervising his time with her or ensuring that somebody else I trust is involved (especially my mum). I never thought I wouldn't trust him to keep her safe.

All I know is that I don't care how I am perceived by others. I won't be taken in by this mass delusion like so many others. I will protect my little girl. That is all that matters.

Welcome Artemis, very sorry to hear about your situation.
For starters you are not a bigot. So many women without any personal connection to this issue are sceptical and enraged by the situation. And you can speak frankly here.

I assume you have explicitly split up with him as you call him your ex?

I would start by setting some boundaries around talking about him, his body, clothes etc and keep it to solely practical stuff. Maybe you tell him that you can no longer support him personally or listen to that stuff - his friends can do that - and keep your communications entirely businesslike. I would absolutely lay down the law on being what sounds like verbally abused.

You really must see a solicitor to find out your rights financially, in terms of accommodation, and re. your legitimate concerns about him having any lone care of your daughter given he is so distracted and behaving inappropriately.

Can any friends or family help you practically to start to reduce your dependence on him?

This is all horribly familiar to many of us. Juvenile and narcissistic for sure. And yes it will only get worse, and he will be incapable of focussing on anyone except himself.

You're not alone. It's the most traumatic and devastating experience but many of us have survived and escaped.

Welcome @LilithArtemis . I am the mother of a son who suddenly announced he’s actually a woman. My pain is different to yours but I can empathise with you. My son has moved out from his wife and three young children. His focus is entirely on himself, which I find sickening but seems to be the norm for these men. I hope you are okay and finding a way forward.

@socialworker222 Thank you for your reply and words of support. Yes, we are separated. I tried to go along with it for a while but I just can't do it.

I need to reestablish boundaries, you are right. I was very clear with what I thought was reasonable and he agreed but then slowly but surely, he started pushing the boundaries. I won't keep being pushed around by him, especially how he has affected our daughter. I have made it very clear how I feel about all this, he calls me an extremist. He is completely ignorant of the reality of womanhood and yet wants to wear it as some kind of misogynistic costume.

He seems happy to be supervised at the moment and I think that says a lot about the motivation behind this for a lot of men like him. It is a rejection of his responsibility as a father, an inherently masculine role. All of this stems from him being forced to be "the man of the house" when he was young and his dad abandoned them, and this is when he started dressing up. It is clear as day that this is a reaction to that. But what disgusts me is the idea that he thinks taking on a feminine role will be any easier or even possible for him. He watched me through a difficult pregnancy, he watched me give birth, he watched me breastfeed, he watched my body give in after trying to work because we needed money when our daughter was a baby. This is womanhood. And it is not something he can claim to try and get out of the masculine responsibility he no longer wishes to hold.

I am very lucky to have an amazing family and all of them are supporting and helping me in different ways, even if most of them seem my views as problematic and extreme. The problem is that I have this support and my ex doesn't so I keep feeling sorry for him, knowing he has nobody else. I know how lucky I am but it puts us all in an awkward position.

@Cholumenosoapy Thank you. I have often thought about how awful it would be to go through this if it is your child that it is happening to. I can't imagine anything worse. It's so scary. I am particularly worried for people who have teenage children at this time as this stuff is not being monitored at all. It is part of why I really want to get involved with arguing against all of this as I don't want this to still be a risk by the time my daughter grows up. It is hard enough being a woman without having men trying to take it from you and appropriate it in a way that puts you in further danger.

Anyway, I'm sorry for rambling. This means a lot. I don't expect anybody to read all this but it's nice to get it off my chest! It is horrible how common this experience is becoming and I hope that eventually I will be able to give the support that I have already been given by kind people like all of you here. Women should not be alone and even demonised in these situations. Society will support my ex so I don't need to concern myself with that. But currently it does not support me or my daughter and that must change.

I have read what you wrote and I hear you @LilithArtemis

You are heard, you are not alone

The problem is that I have this support and my ex doesn't so I keep feeling sorry for him, knowing he has nobody else.

I would put money on him either already having or acquiring soon, a team of online supporters, so I wouldn't feel sorry for him on that score.

My understanding is that these men have ample online support and encouragement. My son and the son of another parent I am in touch with, have outreach workers provided by the NHS.

Until he died my Trans ex-H could get an appointment with his GP every two weeks. He could talk to the GP as long as he liked. I know this because I saw his detailed medical record at the inquest into his death. He died at home after falling out of a window - one which he, as the architect of the house, had designed!

He had on-line support from the Beaumont Society (the "older Trannie Society"!) and he had a few "trannie" "friends", even though they seemed to fight quite a lot. I learned this from early e-mails during the divorce years.

My son William is trying to get Google to allow us access to his two e-mail addresses: he completed the appropriate form and attached his father's death certificate and his own birth certificate. I am not surprised that Google is taking time to sort out who is Paul and who is "Elizabeth". Fortunately my son decided to keep his father's surname.

After more than ten years living alone in a three-bed house my ex-H was eventually extremely lonely, as is clear from his conversations with his nearest neighbour who discovered his lifeless body. She is a "kind" lady who worked for the Environment Agency. Paul/"Elizabeth" complained about how none of his ex-wives came to visit him, and his oldest son Rupert only came when he could spare time from his work and his own young family.... obviously!

The truth tends to dawn as they get older.

But we wives are constantly gas-lit: the Police, the GP, Social Services and the Coroner all referred to "Elizabeth" and I was the only one looking at the full truth at the second hearing of the Inquest, when the full details on his medical record were made available. They were so shocking and so funny! In his final years his prostate started to enlarge again even though he was taking estrogen which has a strong anti-androgen effect and, of course, he had had his testes removed. You might think that there would be very, very little testosterone in his body to cause the prostate to enlarge again. But it did! Somehow nature played a "dirty trick" on him and he had to have "male surgery" to try to correct his inability to pee. The surgery caused him to become incontinent. He must have been in desperate mental anguish! I'm sorry, but after the years of insanity that he had inflicted on me, I laughed in quiet revenge.

I have this support and my ex doesn't so I keep feeling sorry for him, knowing he has nobody else. As well as the fact that he will have or find support, it seems to me that you can't take on supporting him with something so impactful for you and your daughter, while you are trying to practically cope, look after her, safeguard her, and deal with the loss for yourself. Being his source of support and his scapegoat and whipping boy sounds to me a job too far for you. You must take care of your health and energy.

Yes I completely agree with this. Definitely put yourself and your child first. There’s no doubt in my mind that he will have plenty of support from the community and all the misguided health professionals. I find it utterly shocking that GPs, therapists, counsellors etc., all just affirm what they are told. No one challenges. My son informed me that he’d had a diagnosis of gender dysphoria from three different doctors. He evidently believes it but of course there is no diagnosis. Anyone can rock up and announce they are now a woman/man and they then receive affirmation and support by the shed load. On the other hand, the shattered families left behind, are left in pieces with no support from anyone. I self referred for NHS Talking Therapy nine months ago and I’m still on the waiting list.

I'll start a new thread in the next couple of days or so.

It is quite clear that there is a lot of support out there for people who identify as trans. What concerns me is that it isn't real support, it is surface level. They don't really care about each other. They are the first to rip into each other the minute somebody steps out of line or the zeitgeist changes, which is happening constantly. Something that was okay to say yesterday will be demonised tomorrow.

And so I worry about him falling into this. He is still the father of my child and she won't thank me for demonising him like society demonises me. I am trying to find a balance. But I know that at least for now, I need to just focus on now and focus on keeping things stable and relatively normal for my daughter, especially as she is starting big school. It's about her, especially right now, not him or me.

Thank you for all of your sane responses. They are hard to come by!

Something you might consider is that sometimes kids don't want to upset their parents or rock the boat, so they watch their primary caretaker for cues how to feel about the negligent parent; worse still, they also look to their same sex parent for how to be treated. Many, many times, girls of abused mothers grow up knowing it isn't okay, but still internalizing it bc that's what was modeled.

Ofc it's never the hurt parent's fault if their kid goes on to be hurt themselves, but they're still watching how you allow yourself to be treated. Your empathy towards this not very kind man might someday be her empathy towards her own not very kind man.

@Redbird87 I appreciate where you are coming from and I certainly take this into account. I'm an overthinker and I cant help but analyse all of these things.

If anything in our case, it is the opposite that I worry about, which probably hasn't come across in the few posts I've written. Both my daughter and I are the feisty ones, extremely confident, quite loud with our opinions. Her dad has no confidence in what he thinks, what he is capable of and I've often found that I need to rein myself in so as not to overpower him. I forget other people aren't as confident in what they've got to say and I think my daughter does that too. So I think a bit of empathy and understanding would go along way for my daughter. She has no problems with standing her ground but giving a bit of leeway to others is much harder for her.

I think every individual case is different although of course I'm aware of what she is taking in and what she thinks of all this. I take the opportunity to have little chats with her about it when I can in a casual way, trying not to bombard her!

It is hard to know what is best. I know our relationship no longer works so that's over. And so now the priority is making sure that my daughter knows she doesn't have to pick whether to be on Mummy or Daddy's side. I was there as a kid and it's not nice. This is a different situation and so I have to consider it carefully, but it still amounts to the same in her mind if I don't handle it right.

These situations are so complex and it can be so hard to determine what the right course of action is. I just want what is best for my girl.

So your best chance of doing right by her is to put her first, be there for her, listen to her and look after yourself so that you can be a consistent rock for her even if other parts of her life ar unpredictable or changing. You are spot on about 'stable and normal'. The rest of it will unfold and you can't do much about that.

Trans Widows' Escape Committee 6: The Next Generation www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4879982-trans-widows-escape-committee-6-the-next-generation

New thread. Please all move across!

Hi. Not affected personally by this issue but have been on these threads in the past under a diff username offering moral support.

Im just dropping in to make you all aware that this weeks Woman magazine has an article written by a trans widow. I did skim through it while i was in town. (was going to buy it but had to rush home due to bloody IBS) it was quite detailed and made some of the points that have been made on here.