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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hypothetical question - Trans activists and the culture of abuse towards women.

153 replies

HamsterV2 · 03/05/2021 18:42

After the horrorshow that was the multiple hijacked Lesbian Visibility threads, my mind keeps going back to something @Helleofabore asked. Essentially a simple question - "What are trans activists doing to change the abusive culture towards women?" Sadly, in a nutshell, my answer was "nothing".

Hypothetically, if there was an organisation of trans people who wanted to stand with women against the current ideology - perhaps a campaign group based in biological reality who fought for third spaces, trans dv services, the cessation of misogyny and the co-ercive and bullying nature towards lesbians etc etc (we all know the issues) - what would you like to see as immediate priorities?

Essentially what would you, as women, like to see tackled head on BY such an organisation as part of its core aims or framework?

Apologies for this being potentially seen as a "women doing men's work task" - but I've had something scratching at the back of my brain since "those threads". Call it hypothetical fact-finding.. Wink

In light of recent threads of late where TRAs/allies have been deliberately goady, I've attached my response to Helleofabore during one of those threads so you can see my original viewpoint.

Tbh I'm actually quite scared of the potential replies because I know how bad things are, but I would quite like to get a good-faith discussion going on this.

Hypothetical question - Trans activists and the culture of abuse towards women.
OP posts:
DaisiesandButtercups · 04/05/2021 16:15

No ZuttZeVootEeeVro I don’t think so. We just need to teach children age appropriate biology and general principles of being decent human beings, including boys and girls can dress how they like, enjoy whatever hobbies they like and play with whatever toys they like and it is 100% fine because clothes, toys and hobbies are for everyone but children are still either girls or boys because that is something that can’t change.

We need to help children understand what changes and what doesn’t, what is fixed and what is not.

I meant from my comment that teaching them gender identity ideology is not only undermining of safe guarding but also risks being very confusing at a stage when they are learning about and making sense of the world.

Helleofabore · 04/05/2021 16:18

Obviously I'm not talking about transphobic quislings like Hayton, Yardley, Jenner, etc. who fight against trans equality for selfish reasons

Just to be clear, you think this is a thoughtful contribution when the OP clearly has expressed similar, and some of the same interests? Or am I misreading your point?

Well, not really. You have in the past told us clearly you don’t consider any trans person’s opinion that you don’t agree with. It seems particularly so with transmen about female issues too iirc. You discount vocal transmen who advocate for females too. But, plus feel free to correct me if I am remembering you as another poster.

Helleofabore · 04/05/2021 16:19

Plus is please, obviously.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 04/05/2021 16:21

DaisiesandButtercups I agree.

ArabellaScott · 04/05/2021 16:25

...honest, on-topic and thoughtful opinions

...transphobic quislings like Hayton, Yardley, Jenner, etc. who fight against trans equality for selfish reasons

That's thoughtful discourse, to you? You say you are hurt and offended by us focussing on your 'stones' usage, but it's fine for you to fling insults and accusations at people so casually. Double standards, darling.

R0wantrees · 04/05/2021 17:45

"trans people need as much protection from some men as women do."

This obscures the reality of male violence, denies that some male perpetrators of violence against women identify as trans and also that male against male violence (regardless gender identity) is an issue.

There are particular sex-based vulnerabilities for women which are not shared.

None of which denies the seriousness of male violence against gender non-conforming males.

MadBadDaddy · 04/05/2021 19:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

334bu · 04/05/2021 19:57

Getting beyond the name calling, accepting that women and transwomen do not share the same oppressions, accepting our differences and attempting to find what we might have in common, then we might come out the other end with a fairer society for both women and transwomen. However, our differences have to be acknowledged if we are to move forward.

ArabellaScott · 04/05/2021 19:57

I have never used either of those phrases in my life.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 04/05/2021 19:59

I think thats the royal you arabella

The one that includes us whether we’ve ever said or done it or not

ArabellaScott · 04/05/2021 21:53

Ooh, I am royal! Thanks, Rufus, for letting me know what I always secretly suspected. I wonder what my first proclamation will be ...

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 04/05/2021 22:20

Oh god ive created a monster 😩

Wandawomble · 04/05/2021 22:30

@MadBadDaddy

You can take this or leave it , but I don't know anyone, online or IRL, trans or otherwise, who fights for trans rights and who doesn't also support women and women's rights. I'm honestly not sure what someone who supported one and not the other would even look like. I am sure I wouldn't want anything to do with them.

Obviously I'm not talking about transphobic quislings like Hayton, Yardley, Jenner, etc. who fight against trans equality for selfish reasons.

And obviously I'm not talking about those who are ideologically dedicated to "morally mandating" us out of our very existence, or else want us to scurry back into the shadows like "the good old days", which lets most of you out too.

Dismiss us as "TRAs" if you want, but we are here, we continue to support feminism and women's rights, we just won't answer or bend our knees to a minority of close-minded extremists who conceal transphobia behind a fig leaf of "reasonable concerns"

What an ugly post.
You made your point entirely clear.
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 04/05/2021 22:56

And whilst I can usually find a way to dance around the censorship here to make my point, I simply can't state this one simple truth in the way it must be stated and have it permitted to stand.

With you, Barracker.

TinselAngel · 04/05/2021 23:35

@HamsterV2

After the horrorshow that was the multiple hijacked Lesbian Visibility threads, my mind keeps going back to something *@Helleofabore* asked. Essentially a simple question - "What are trans activists doing to change the abusive culture towards women?" Sadly, in a nutshell, my answer was "nothing".

Hypothetically, if there was an organisation of trans people who wanted to stand with women against the current ideology - perhaps a campaign group based in biological reality who fought for third spaces, trans dv services, the cessation of misogyny and the co-ercive and bullying nature towards lesbians etc etc (we all know the issues) - what would you like to see as immediate priorities?

Essentially what would you, as women, like to see tackled head on BY such an organisation as part of its core aims or framework?

Apologies for this being potentially seen as a "women doing men's work task" - but I've had something scratching at the back of my brain since "those threads". Call it hypothetical fact-finding.. Wink

In light of recent threads of late where TRAs/allies have been deliberately goady, I've attached my response to Helleofabore during one of those threads so you can see my original viewpoint.

Tbh I'm actually quite scared of the potential replies because I know how bad things are, but I would quite like to get a good-faith discussion going on this.

No. Such an organisation could never be true allies to women because it would be made up of people who leave trans widows in their wake.

Even if they didn't, there would be mothers, siblings and other female relatives.

Women need to name their own needs and priorities without moderating those needs in order to make strategic alliances.

We don't need some kind of quid pro quo.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/05/2021 23:47

Women need to name their own needs and priorities without moderating those needs in order to make strategic alliances.

This.

Stopthisnow · 05/05/2021 01:26

”Hypothetically, if there was an organisation of trans people who wanted to stand with women against the current ideology - perhaps a campaign group based in biological reality who fought for third spaces, trans dv services, the cessation of misogyny and the co-ercive and bullying nature towards lesbians etc etc (we all know the issues) - what would you like to see as immediate priorities?”

The problem for me is the idea people can change sex, either through identifying or through medical interventions, I view it as sexist and homophobic. I doubt such a group would be willing to accept that medical interventions are an extreme solution to dysphoria around one’s sexed body, with the understanding that it does not alter one’s sex, i.e. a male accepting that undergoing medical interventions does not turn him into a type of woman. If the group could accept those things, it would help reduce the expectations of those who pursue medical interventions, and also help stop women being reduced to a set of cosmetic surgeries that males can obtain, but would they be willing to accept those things?

If the group supported those who advocate for therapies that help people accept themselves as their biological sex, that would be beneficial, as there is very little evidence medical intervention is helpful to most people. Talking therapies that explore and identify the cause(s) of why someone identifies as the opposite sex, and then addresses those causes so people can accept themselves as their biological sex, prevent people having to live with medical interventions they later regret. Though how would this sit with a group made up of people who think medical interventions were beneficial for them?

I think if the group advocated for all males to use either spaces for their own sex or third spaces (that are single occupancy that anyone can use) that would help to keep females safe and respect our privacy, whilst also adding an extra option for everyone, so I think that is a good idea. In the case of refuges and shelters, I think male shelters should be sufficient, the males in them will overwhelmingly be gay and bi men, I doubt a male who identifies as a woman will be in anymore danger in them than a feminine gay man. In prisons there are wings for at risk prisoners, which should be sufficient.

If the group supported females and lesbians having female only spaces, where we can meet and socialise without the presence of males, then I think that would be a positive thing.

If the group helped to make it more publicly known that it is not only gay men who are identifying as women, but also heterosexual men identifying as lesbian women and claiming that women can have a penis etc. And also helped bring the cause of why heterosexual males identify as women out into open, as well as the fact that most males keep their genitals intact despite identifying as women, then that would be positive.

If the group condemned the policing of language that many activists insist on, that would be positive, as people should not be forced to ‘validate’ someone’s subjective self identity or face sanctions or being reported for a ‘hate incident’. As well as the DARVO of males who claim to be victims and scream they have been discriminated against, if a women refuses to ‘validate’ a males self declared identity as a woman or a lesbian.

The group would have to understand that there would be times when their aims would be very different to women’s, though I think such a group would certainly be better than the Stonewall advocacy we see currently. I also think it could be helpful for females, if males who have had medical intervention had their own group, rather than them being constantly platformed in women’s groups, as that could help those groups to focus more on women.

HamsterV2 · 05/05/2021 07:58

[quote TinselAngel]uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/[/quote]
I've just read the article Tinsel. It was an eye opener.

I'd posted this question in genuinely good faith, but if that's to be potentially seen as forced teaming or gaslighting on my part then I apologise.

I was looking for hypothetical ways around this long, dreadful, war of attrition but it looks like it's not going to be possible, for the moment at least.

The solution therefore on my part is simple. I'll not contribute/post again, as I don't want to be making anyone uncomfortable or be seen in a negative light.

Thank you to everyone who's contributed to the post though. Flowers

OP posts:
EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 05/05/2021 08:05

No. Such an organisation could never be true allies to women because it would be made up of people who leave trans widows in their wake.

This is what bothers me about feminist organisations that platform & celebrate certain transwomen, It leaves their wives - the ones who should be getting prioritised and listened to - nowhere to go.

R0wantrees · 05/05/2021 08:13

This is what bothers me about feminist organisations that platform & celebrate certain transwomen, It leaves their wives - the ones who should be getting prioritised and listened to - nowhere to go.

Likewise the children:
childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/02/27/how-to-help-children-of-transitioners/

childrenoftransitioners.org/2019/08/29/the-invisible-mother/

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 05/05/2021 08:47

Very much likewise the children.

R0wantrees · 05/05/2021 08:48

@Barracker

I appreciate the sentiment, I do.

But I think there is only one remedy for the situation, and it lies not in any palliative action. It rests in really facing the heart of the problem. Casting aside all euphemisms, and brutally admitting the simple truth in crystal clear words.

And whilst I can usually find a way to dance around the censorship here to make my point, I simply can't state this one simple truth in the way it must be stated and have it permitted to stand.

I'm sorry.

This ^^
TinselAngel · 05/05/2021 08:57

And the sisters

blog.usejournal.com/dear-trans-sibling-29ac12b13f20

R0wantrees · 05/05/2021 09:02

From article above
(extract)

"I wondered about asking you if it would be OK if I went back to the male pronouns, but I decided against it. I think you would say yes, that I should use whatever language I wanted but on the inside I think that would hurt you too much. I’d rather use the wrong word if that makes it easier for you and I to relate to one another. So, I am doing my best to learn to like the word sister but I think it’s going to take me some time.

Anyway, if I started using the male pronouns again, I would just confuse my daughter, who at three years old accepts you as a woman with no questions asked. She knows you on a first name basis. We don’t use ‘Aunty’ often because again it feels a bit like the wrong word, I’m sorry about that, but she knows you are my sister and she is always happy to see you and she knows you are the one who spoils her rotten at every opportunity." (continues)