Hypothetical question - Trans activists and the culture of abuse towards women.

[HamsterV2]

After the horrorshow that was the multiple hijacked Lesbian Visibility threads, my mind keeps going back to something @Helleofabore asked. Essentially a simple question - "What are trans activists doing to change the abusive culture towards women?" Sadly, in a nutshell, my answer was "nothing".

Hypothetically, if there was an organisation of trans people who wanted to stand with women against the current ideology - perhaps a campaign group based in biological reality who fought for third spaces, trans dv services, the cessation of misogyny and the co-ercive and bullying nature towards lesbians etc etc (we all know the issues) - what would you like to see as immediate priorities?

Essentially what would you, as women, like to see tackled head on BY such an organisation as part of its core aims or framework?

Apologies for this being potentially seen as a "women doing men's work task" - but I've had something scratching at the back of my brain since "those threads". Call it hypothetical fact-finding..

In light of recent threads of late where TRAs/allies have been deliberately goady, I've attached my response to Helleofabore during one of those threads so you can see my original viewpoint.

Tbh I'm actually quite scared of the potential replies because I know how bad things are, but I would quite like to get a good-faith discussion going on this.

Yes, pickle, and as ever it seems to be those on the receiving end having to try and fix it, to try and not hurt each other, to try and access diminishing resources without stepping on others' toes.

Hamster

I have brain fog today so nowt intelligent to say, but I do think what ever group could be created should really try to take on the crap spouted by tra orgs for schools. Not even tra orgs; challenging the gumpf no outsiders et al do.

I'm aware this is set to seep into the new eyfs framework (or already has, into associated guidance and training.)

Which is just taking the proverbial

I can't see how we can counteract TRA while supporting the idea that some men aren't men because of their gender identity?

How can we have the categories of women, men and trans, and not erode sex as a class?

How are we supposed to explain why a man isn't a man to a child and hope to maintain safeguarding?

Well, quite.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Always an interesting exercise to see how much of what i write is taken and responded to in good faith, and how much energy goes into finding the worst possible takes on the most minor points.

Like that time when you accused me of calling you "it" because you didn't read the post properly, and then when your mistake was pointed out to you by multiple posters you didn't apologise for smearing me?

I read the post just fine. Regardless of your intention, it was highly offensive to me, as I personally and trans ppl generally are often referred to as 'it' as well as other dehumanising terms.

It is as obvious now as it was then that you lack even a minimum of basic empathy or respect, so I have nothing else to say to you.

Warms me up a bit that you haven't forgotten either, mind.

@InspiralCoalescenceRingdown

Always an interesting exercise to see how much of what i write is taken and responded to in good faith, and how much energy goes into finding the worst possible takes on the most minor points.

Maybe if you posted in good faith, you'd get responses in good faith.

Thanks I needed a chuckle

I read the post just fine. Regardless of your intention, it was highly offensive to me, as I personally and trans ppl generally are often referred to as 'it' as well as other dehumanising terms.

There was no "intention" on my part at all. You simply read it wrong, and refused to apologise even when it was demonstrated by me and agreed upon by at least 5 others that you were obviously reading it wrong. Some of them have said they remember it too.

I’m not familiar with the incident being discussed in this thread. Let me see if I can reconstruct it from the evidence:

MBD got confused about the antecedent of a pronoun weeks or months ago and started shouting about transphobia on the basis of their confusion.

MBD then had multiple people explain English grammar to them.

Most human beings would feel extremely ashamed of acting like that, but not this person, who is, almost unbelievably, being smug and self righteous about their reading comprehension failure and still saying the post they failed to read properly was offensive.

Did I get it right? This is about them not understanding a pronoun antecedent?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

What part of "Regardless of your intention" do you have trouble understanding?

'It' being the telling off, obviously?

So Eresh posted that they will treat MBD's telling off with the respect it deserves and MBD read that as Eresh calling them it? Seriously?

Are you seriously claiming transphobia and hurt feelings on the back of that post, MBD? I think that speaks of your own perception and issues with self worth. That's like sitting in a bus stop shouting 'Are you looking at me? Do you wanna start something?!', at random passers by.

Obviously I'm not talking about transphobic quislings like Hayton, Yardley, Jenner, etc. who fight against trans equality for selfish reasons

These are examples of transwomen who are not implicitly and utterly selfish and self focussed in that they show some consideration towards women and girls ,and have some feelings of empathy and compassion for the female sex, which they claim to identify as.

Identifying with, rather than as a woman seems like a far more equitable way to go, & one which recognises the very real differences between women and transwomen.

FFS I didn't bring this up! I haven't responded to one word they've said since that happened. I knew they would just keep doubling down and would rather gargle old milk than concede they'd said something hurtful regardless of their intention

Where are our voices in national discourse to counter the endless anti-trans output of The Times or The Telegraph or The Mail?Where are our crowdfunded campaigns taking governments to court

The irony here is that it is grassroots women's organisations that have brought the issue up for public discussion and exposure in the likes of the media outletsa mentioned. It is not the other way around.

And this grassroots movement has had to contend with multi-million dollar campaigns and donors originating from the U.S; with the tech bros in California and Washington; with theb likes of stonewall which has institutionally captured public and governmental bodies; funded by some powerful and wealthy gay men and others in parliament and the public eye.

It is quite astonishing what groups of mere women can achieve when they put their heart and soul into it......and seek to bring some day light on to the steady erosion of their spaces, services and sports in favour of an ideology, which when it comes down to it, prioritises the needs of male born people over the needs of women and girls.

Thank goodness that there are transwomen such as Miranda Yardley and others who can see this, and who, as a result, campaign for third spaces - for the purpose of everyone having their discrete identity and needs for dignity, comfort and fairness met.

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

I can't see how we can counteract TRA while supporting the idea that some men aren't men because of their gender identity?

How can we have the categories of women, men and trans, and not erode sex as a class?

How are we supposed to explain why a man isn't a man to a child and hope to maintain safeguarding?

But can’t the emphasis be similar to Miranda Yardley et al who say we are men and this is how we feel comfortable presenting ourselves, and this is how we feel ok about our bodies in the case of hormones and surgery.

In the case of Scott Newgent and other transmen, we are female but this is how we are comfortable presenting ourselves and how we feel okay about our bodies.

No one should be discriminated against, bullied, beaten, disadvantaged or anything the like regardless of how they present, what their body is like, what they believe etc.

I absolutely agree with your point about explaining things to children and safeguarding but also their own ability to understand the world around them.

Hypothetically, if there was an organisation of trans people who wanted to stand with women against the current ideology - perhaps a campaign group based in biological reality who fought for third spaces, trans dv services, the cessation of misogyny and the co-ercive and bullying nature towards lesbians etc etc (we all know the issues) - what would you like to see as immediate priorities?

The immediate priority is to admit biological reality and that the oppression facing women is not the same as the oppression faced by transwomen. Then we can campaign together for third spaces where transwomen can feel safe from other males.

There does seem to be an increasing number of Transmen who are interested in speaking out around this:

twitter.com/elegationvain?s=21

Ok MBD, having now gone back I can see what you are getting at.
Way back when you misread a post and felt really hurt by it- and I can see how you would have read it that way, on a sensitive day.

I think ereshkigal was pointing out that you'd seen the worst in her posts, which wasn't actually there, and are now complaining about people looking for the worst in your posts.

It's frustrating when we are primed to see and take offence at other people's contributions, and speaks to the depth of division and ill feeling around this subject.

But can’t the emphasis be similar to Miranda Yardley et al who say we are men and this is how we feel comfortable presenting ourselves, and this is how we feel ok about our bodies in the case of hormones and surgery.

Do children need lessons to explain why some women never wear skirts or make up and have short hair?

Why treat some as if their clothing is somehow more meaningful than just a choice?

If some need surgery and hormones to make them feel better, why is that treated any different to any other medical treatment. Do children have to be taught the treatment of all conditions? Why is this unique?

@picklemewalnuts

I very much appreciate you demonstrating some understanding of my POV on the subject, but it's not really you i need to hear that from. Like I said, I gave up on both the issue and the poster, although obviously i haven't forgotten it.

Considering that most of the responses to my honest, on-topic and thoughtful opinions expressed on this thread have concerned themselves with the single word 'stones' I don't feel an overwhelming urge to apologise for any perceived pedantry on my part.

@DialSquare

So Eresh posted that they will treat MBD's telling off with the respect it deserves and MBD read that as Eresh calling them it? Seriously?

Yes. That sums it up.

So, it is thoughtful to call trans people who disagree with you ‘transphobic’?

It seems lots of words have been redefined over the past few years.