Hypothetical question - Trans activists and the culture of abuse towards women.

[HamsterV2]

After the horrorshow that was the multiple hijacked Lesbian Visibility threads, my mind keeps going back to something @Helleofabore asked. Essentially a simple question - "What are trans activists doing to change the abusive culture towards women?" Sadly, in a nutshell, my answer was "nothing".

Hypothetically, if there was an organisation of trans people who wanted to stand with women against the current ideology - perhaps a campaign group based in biological reality who fought for third spaces, trans dv services, the cessation of misogyny and the co-ercive and bullying nature towards lesbians etc etc (we all know the issues) - what would you like to see as immediate priorities?

Essentially what would you, as women, like to see tackled head on BY such an organisation as part of its core aims or framework?

Apologies for this being potentially seen as a "women doing men's work task" - but I've had something scratching at the back of my brain since "those threads". Call it hypothetical fact-finding..

In light of recent threads of late where TRAs/allies have been deliberately goady, I've attached my response to Helleofabore during one of those threads so you can see my original viewpoint.

Tbh I'm actually quite scared of the potential replies because I know how bad things are, but I would quite like to get a good-faith discussion going on this.

PaleGreenGhost

Really sorry that you were subjected to such awful crimes, palegreenghost.
Of course same-sex provision is necessary and just.

@PaleGreenGhost

You're not here for discussion are you?

Nah..I'm not trying to set the world to rights, and if I was I wouldn't be doing it here. I'm just responding to the OP and standing up for the good name of some of the finest and most principled people I know.

I will dispute your "influence in all the powerful places" claim though. Who do we have to match Liz Truss or Baroness Nicholson?
How many billionaire children's authors are carrying water for us?
Where are our voices in national discourse to counter the endless anti-trans output of The Times or The Telegraph or The Mail?
Where are our crowdfunded campaigns taking governments to court?

On your last point IMO the capability for exemptions in the EA for what you describe are fair enough as they stand, and I don't see much appetite for changing this as just retaining our current protections is a far more pressing issue. I wouldn't do anything to dismiss or belittle your awful trauma, but I would argue that it does not justify attacking someone else's rights.

PaleGreen

MadBadDaddy - I'm so sick of having to defend women from attacks from people who claim to be on the 'right side of history'. The right side of history has presumably been purged of problematic women, and 'transphobic quislings' - how dare you! That is a disgusting thing to say, and so unfair to level insults at people who have far more to lose than you. What does it matter to you, how women and/or trans people feel?

Women and trans people are here, saying no to you. What on earth gives you the right to insult anyone?

I appreciate the sentiment, I do.

But I think there is only one remedy for the situation, and it lies not in any palliative action. It rests in really facing the heart of the problem. Casting aside all euphemisms, and brutally admitting the simple truth in crystal clear words.

And whilst I can usually find a way to dance around the censorship here to make my point, I simply can't state this one simple truth in the way it must be stated and have it permitted to stand.

I'm sorry.

Who do we have to match Liz Truss or Baroness Nicholson?

Isn't Stonewall enough? A behemoth with it's fingers in companies, schools, the police, NHS and pretty much every organisation you can think of

How many billionaire children's authors are carrying water for us?

What exactly did JKR say that was transphobic?

Where are our voices in national discourse to counter the endless anti-trans output of The Times or The Telegraph or The Mail?

When trans people ARE invited to give interviews on TV, the press and other media there is a tendency to refuse/"no debate" because there is another perspective to challenge them.

Where are our crowdfunded campaigns taking governments to court?

What's to stop trans people organising and setting up their own grassroots campaigns. Women banded together and did it.

Barracker - I read your posts on here and there's nothing that you've ever written that I disagree with. Your points are powerful, eloquent, incisive, and factual, with some of your writing having influenced my own thought processes and feelings.

This is one of those times that I would really like seeing your uncensored opinion but I absolutely understand why.

In all honesty Hamster, I'd start by finding community with like-minded and experienced people ('old-school trans') and make sure that you all have a support network. You need to look after your selves first.

I think the thing is to identify your needs and then see if they segue with or conflict with women's needs and go from there.

I will dispute your "influence in all the powerful places" claim though. Who do we have to match Liz Truss or Baroness Nicholson?

You have the Labour Party, Green Party, Lib Dems, SNP and still a fair number of vocal Conservative Party members. You have numerous supporters in the House of Lords including your own Baronesses (if you're not writing to those people regularly that's on you). Baroness Nicholson responds because 1000s of women are contacting her.

How many billionaire children's authors are carrying water for us?

There are a number of millionaire/billionaires that carry water for trans rights and even donate money to your cause. Is it imperative that they are a children's author because that would be oddly specific?

Where are our voices in national discourse to counter the endless anti-trans output of The Times or The Telegraph or The Mail?

You have The Guardian who seems willing to rid itself of dissenting journalists on your behalf. The Independent also seems consistently in favour of gender identity politics. The three you mention aren't completely without 'pro trans' content either, The Telegraph has or had a weekly column from a middle aged transitioner.

Where are our crowdfunded campaigns taking governments to court?

The Good Law Project has raised plenty of money for this purpose and there is absolutely nothing stopping trans people and allies instigating whatever legal action you deem needed and starting a crowdfunder for it. I very much doubt a site like CrowdJustice would dare treat a trans crowdfunder the way they treated Allison Bailey.

Thanks HamsterV2
I know you're a goodun and I know you want things to be better.

As for my uncensored opinion, you probably already know it. It's absent any hate, any cruelty.
It's pretty much everything I've ever had to say on this subject distilled into three words.

Hamster, I agree with the posters that suggested a decoupling from the LGB and women’s rights. There will be situations where interests not align and I think there need to be an open discussion around those situations. It is difficult to sit on two chairs.

Complete honesty and openness and a zero tolerance for harassment would be great. Both harassment of trans women and harassment of biological women.

I also believe that trans medicine would be an area where you need to see if there could be funding for research. I think that risk of heart attacks, blood cloths etc increases massively for trans people due to our insufficient understanding of the impact of hormones on the human body. This are should be prioritised to help trans health.

Hypothetically, if there was an organisation of trans people who wanted to stand with women against the current ideology - perhaps a campaign group based in biological reality who fought for third spaces, trans dv services, the cessation of misogyny and the co-ercive and bullying nature towards lesbians etc etc (we all know the issues) - what would you like to see as immediate priorities?

Feminism is about recognising the needs and wants of women, how they are treated because of their sex and how gender is enforced.

How is it possible to see gender as something that is manufactured to oppress women AND something that makes some men different from others?

Feminism is the fight to dismantle gender, TRA is the fight to enforce it. Asking women to support separate spaces because some men embrace gender is asking women to support gender.

You can take this or leave it , but I don't know anyone, online or IRL, trans or otherwise, who fights for trans rights and who doesn't also support women and women's rights. I'm honestly not sure what someone who supported one and not the other would even look like. I am sure I wouldn't want anything to do with them.

Support women and women's rights????? Tell me how does forcing female prisoners to share intimate spaces with male sex offenders support women's rights????

Essentially what would you, as women, like to see tackled head on BY such an organisation as part of its core aims or framework?

An end to disruption of sex based Safeguarding.

A focus on challenging the influence and claims made by trans organisations (Press For Change, GIRES, Mermaids, Scottish Trans Alliance, Beaumont Society, A:Gender, TELI etc) which have disrupted sex based Safeguarding rather than making demands of women/ women's groups.

I guess one thing that could work is an alliance with detransitioners?

That's an open question and not a statement.

[quote MadBadDaddy]@PaleGreenGhost

You're not here for discussion are you?

Nah..I'm not trying to set the world to rights, and if I was I wouldn't be doing it here. I'm just responding to the OP and standing up for the good name of some of the finest and most principled people I know.

I will dispute your "influence in all the powerful places" claim though. Who do we have to match Liz Truss or Baroness Nicholson?
How many billionaire children's authors are carrying water for us?
Where are our voices in national discourse to counter the endless anti-trans output of The Times or The Telegraph or The Mail?
Where are our crowdfunded campaigns taking governments to court?

On your last point IMO the capability for exemptions in the EA for what you describe are fair enough as they stand, and I don't see much appetite for changing this as just retaining our current protections is a far more pressing issue. I wouldn't do anything to dismiss or belittle your awful trauma, but I would argue that it does not justify attacking someone else's rights.[/quote]
TRAs are well-represented in both Houses of Parliament.
Your lobby groups are well-funded.
TRAs have institutional power so much that you have changed laws in your interests, without rigorous consultation of stakeholders and minority groups and grassroots organisations have to crowdfund to access some representation.
Your views are well-represented in the Guardian and the state broadcaster.
What do you need to crowdfund? Where has your lobbying failed? Why are you asking us about this? If you need to crowdfund, do it.

I do get upset when a woman goes on record saying things like 'I wish transwomen well and want them to live their lives as they wish and be free from harm, but as a victim of abuse we do need female only spaces' and then is piled on as 'hateful TERF!' 'She wants trans women to die' 'She wishes trans women didn't exist'. A better reply response might be 'Isn't it awful that male violence/abuse make these difficulties for all women, what can we do about it?'

Then we have situations where you get an amazing activist against VAWG like Dr Jessica Taylor and I see friends sharing her stuff, and then other people going 'Oooh, don't share her, she's a TERF' and they're all 'Oh gosh, sorry won't do that again.'

So is all her work totally discounted? It means nothing and she should shut up/be ignored because she is someone who is not in the TWAW camp? You can only help any women at all if you believe TWAW? I myself lean toward TWAW, but that does not sit right to me. If cis women need to understand trans women's issues, it seems to be this should be a two-way street, especially as cis women are hardly without their own challenges? We need solidarity, not 'Women are being so unwelcoming and unfair'

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I guess one thing that could work is an alliance with detransitioners?

That's an open question and not a statement.

Trans people actually do support many detransitioners, online and IRL. The ones who detrans for ideological reasons (ie KB) obviously don't want our support, but they still have more of our sympathy than you may realise (yes even KB). Transition is a hard road, and for some it is too hard. If you have the stones to question your own gender to the point you actually do something about it, then you are family to us, wherever your journey leads you.

Your post is typical of a desire to court and exploit detrans for your own political ends. Pro-lifers do much the same thing with those who regret their abortions.

So MadBadDaddy do you support forcing female prisoners to share with male sex offenders?????

If you have the stones to question your own gender

Stones?

If you have the stones to question your own gender to the point you actually do something about it, then you are family to us, wherever your journey leads you.

Obviously I'm not talking about transphobic quislings like Hayton, Yardley, Jenner, etc. who fight against trans equality for selfish reasons.

These two statements, made in the same thread seem rather contradictory. The word family clearly has some caveats.