Hypothetical question - Trans activists and the culture of abuse towards women.

[HamsterV2]

After the horrorshow that was the multiple hijacked Lesbian Visibility threads, my mind keeps going back to something @Helleofabore asked. Essentially a simple question - "What are trans activists doing to change the abusive culture towards women?" Sadly, in a nutshell, my answer was "nothing".

Hypothetically, if there was an organisation of trans people who wanted to stand with women against the current ideology - perhaps a campaign group based in biological reality who fought for third spaces, trans dv services, the cessation of misogyny and the co-ercive and bullying nature towards lesbians etc etc (we all know the issues) - what would you like to see as immediate priorities?

Essentially what would you, as women, like to see tackled head on BY such an organisation as part of its core aims or framework?

Apologies for this being potentially seen as a "women doing men's work task" - but I've had something scratching at the back of my brain since "those threads". Call it hypothetical fact-finding..

In light of recent threads of late where TRAs/allies have been deliberately goady, I've attached my response to Helleofabore during one of those threads so you can see my original viewpoint.

Tbh I'm actually quite scared of the potential replies because I know how bad things are, but I would quite like to get a good-faith discussion going on this.

As for civility, I believe there are certainly factions whose tactics mirror MRAs, with deeply misogynistic beliefs.

Aren't you just point to others that are behaving badly to distract from what you want to do and the damage that does to woman and girls?

Wanting separate spaces away from other men based on gender identity is contributing to the idea that gender makes some men very different to other men. So different that they can't be called men or even share space with other men. It's a layer that you are adding to distract from sex and elevating gender.

Rarely not rely

Sorry auto correct made a word salad of my post. Apologies to the English language.

@334bu

Sorry auto correct made a word salad of my post. Apologies to the English language.

I have to apologise too. How can I only see it after I press post?

If 'trans healthcare' is code for cosmetic intervention, then it needs to sit alongside all other cosmetic interventions. I don't believe transwomen should have preferential access to laser treatment for facial hair over a woman with unwanted facial hair, for example.

The NHS commissioning services tend to package up trans healthcare in an individual bundle for patients which usually consists of...

Visits to GIC, of which the first visit is running at 3+ years in some cases.
Hormone Therapy.
Blood/endocrine level testing.
12 sessions of laser treatment or xyz-hours of electrolysis which is farmed out to private salons and paid for directly by the NHS.
Double mastectomy.
Vaginoplasty/Orchidectomy.

...obviously based on the needs of the patient.

Breast augmentation, facial feminisation or anything cosmetic to alter secondary sex characteristics are not covered.

With better outcomes for children, we're wading into the murky waters of ROGD, social contagion, conversion therapy for gay/lesbian children or just kids who are GNC. Of that group a tiny, tiny, TINY cohort will have gender dysphoria that persists throughout their adult life. This is why watch and wait is SO important and affirmation therapy needs to stop. Children are being harmed by this ridiculous conveyor belt system.

The more vociferous TRAs don't seem to see the detransition rates going up on a monthly basis or the women/girls trying to escape womanhood because life is "so much better" for men. To them it's about gatekeeping their existence or trying to erase them.

Also, the psychiatric evaluations for adults need to be more robust. You can pretty much walk into any GIC, reel off a script based on state dependent learning and walk out with a diagnosis of being trans. Adults are being conveyor-belted too with this affirmation therapy. There are no checks, no detailed psychiatric analysis of getting to the root of other things - for example trauma or ASDs.

The whole thing is a mess and both children AND adults need support.

is there much research on whether risk profiles for cardiovascular events, cancers, etc change following hormonal intervention?

Aren't you just point to others that are behaving badly to distract from what you want to do and the damage that does to woman and girls?

Wanting separate spaces away from other men based on gender identity is contributing to the idea that gender makes some men very different to other men. So different that they can't be called men or even share space with other men. It's a layer that you are adding to distract from sex and elevating gender.

Wanting separate spaces away from other men because it's men who are the main abusers of transwomen. My broken jaw, missing teeth and broken nose where at the hands of another man. The scar I have above my right eyebrow that was caused by the large gold ring of the man who punched me in the face during my SECOND assult.

Perhaps I'm hypothetically campaigning for this because of the times men have grabbed at my crotch to see if I have a penis or not. Perhaps I'm campaining for third spaces because I don't feel safe at night and mirror the behaviour of women by holding my keys in my fist when I walk alone in the dark.

Men behave badly, transwomen behave badly. I'm not elevating gender or trying to distract from sex because my feet are very much balanced on biological reality.

I'm just illustrating that the trans people need as much protection from some men as some women do. That's not elevation, that's fact.

(Sorry, just stepping away from this thread for a while. I didn't mean to get angry, I apologise)

Hamster

Yikes. Please would whoever reported my post explain what I said that was so wrong?

Also hamster

Hamster. I'm really sorry for your experiences, that sounds hellish and I hope you have had support to help process it.

I wanted to note, as gently as I can say it, and by no means to diminish your experiences, transwomen are, statistically, safer than women. The stats on Karen Ingala Smith's recent blog confirmed this.

Yes, males are at risk from other males. But females do have some inbuilt (statistical) disadvantages - height, weight, muscle mass, etc). Which doesn't mean transwomen don't need and deserve protection from males, just want to keep the facts as clear as possible.

It would be good if we can reach a place where everyone has the support, safety and compassion they need and deserve.

And also, sorry, on second thoughts, I should just have offered .

These subjects are emotive for so many.

Hope you are okay, Hamster.

Hamster's experiences remind me of those experienced by gay men that I came across in the late 80s and through the 90s. The provocation here was homophobia. I think there is fertile ground for discussion here - but MN at the moment isn't the place to have this.

Sorry - provocation is the wrong word. Motive?

Hamster. Nobody should be abused because of who they are but diminishing the danger that the male sex pose to females is not right either and your statement that some women need protection from men shows your bias. Unfortunately, in our society all women need protection from some members of the male sex of all gender identities. There will be nobody on this board who has not suffered sexual aggression from men and some will also ,like many males, have suffered extreme physical violence. Expecting women to compromise their safety to protect vulnerable members of the male sex is a step too far. It is up to the male sex to sort this out.

@PaleGreenGhost
@HamsterV2

I love the idea of an affiliation of organisations. Your thoughts are very interesting OP.

It’s hard to feel hopeful at times. I just watched a comment on the Guardian disappear into thin air before my very eyes, because the poster had suggested Labour’s laser focus on identity politics was turning off voters. It was zapped by the powers that be almost the second I’d finished reading it. With no mainstream space even to discuss issues in broad, respectful terms like that, how can we ever move forward?

and your statement that some women need protection from men shows your bias.

I apologise for that @334bu That was a semantic error on my part rather than bias.

The sentence should have read "trans people need as much protection from some men as women do." (without the second some).

If it came across that I was trying to diminish violence against women, that wasn't my intention. I was hastily, and emotionally typing.

Again, I apologise.

I'm off to get a cup of tea and walk away from the PC for a bit.

@PaleGreenGhost

Yikes. Please would whoever reported my post explain what I said that was so wrong?

I wonder, too.

[quote LazyHorizon]@PaleGreenGhost
@HamsterV2

I love the idea of an affiliation of organisations. Your thoughts are very interesting OP.

It’s hard to feel hopeful at times. I just watched a comment on the Guardian disappear into thin air before my very eyes, because the poster had suggested Labour’s laser focus on identity politics was turning off voters. It was zapped by the powers that be almost the second I’d finished reading it. With no mainstream space even to discuss issues in broad, respectful terms like that, how can we ever move forward? [/quote]
Well I've just had my comment disappear here about 3 minutes after posting it!

I was attempting to discuss the watchful waiting stance with OP and adolescent mental health in our heavily gendered world.

A mother discussing child mental health on a parenting board with an OP with a different life experience who is yet supportive. The way forward you'd think.

I must have said something pretty outrageous to be zapped so instantly!

If it came across that I was trying to diminish violence against women, that wasn't my intention. I was hastily, and emotionally typing

I totally get this. I'm still angsting over my use of 'provocation' when that really wasn't what I meant.

Hamster

hamster. I'm sorry about the assaults you've suffered.

These are horrible things to try and talk about. I wonder how we protect people from male violence? Categorising people according to how great their need is to be protected is pretty brutal. Third spaces for all who want to use them, without destroying single sex spaces for those who need them seems to hit it.

Thank you for your clarity about the healthcare offered in the NHS.

The solution to any of these issues isn't to hide sex, or pretend that there is a way to avoid being a man or woman.

Sex rights are being eroded, children are being placed on puberty blockers, the word woman is becoming indefinable.

Lots of this is a result of men who want to pretend that they aren't men, they are somehow different and should be call a type of woman.