BBC article on Elliot Page

[Sittinonthesand]

I don’t know anything about Page - I’ve only seen the name in the context of being trans, but this article contains several worrying/misleading half truths:

• talks about ‘top surgery’ without explaining that it = mastectomy (refers to ‘removal of breast tissue instead).
• talks about surgery as being ‘life saving’ without explaining why.
• says that trans children aren’t being allowed to play sport and this will lead some to die - doesn’t explain why they might die, doesn’t say that they can play sport but maybe not with the sex they’d like.

HQ, I would still really appreciate an answer to my question, please. ‘Cisgender’ is not just ‘not appreciated’ by the GC feminist community - it’s considered highly offensive. Why is this not a reason to ban it?

yes, there's a big difference between "not appreciated" and "find offensive". I find the term offensive. I am a woman, not a sub grouping of woman that is on an equal par with someone that grew up with male privilege and went through a male puberty.

Re this “uncomfortable in a dress” business. I’m always struck by photos of men and women together at black tie events. The women are at least 50% naked. Usually arms, maybe legs, back, shoulders, some chest. Dress likely to be body-hugging. Now picture a man in that photo with short sleeves, no sleeves, or in shorts. Never! Only hands and face on display. I always feel exposed in any kind of evening dress or cocktail dress. That’s what they are designed to do. Whereas men wear a version of their normal clothes, maybe with added cummerbund to hold the belly.

Now picture a man in that photo with short sleeves, no sleeves, or in shorts

And every single inch of skin hairless- waxed, tanned and polished. Any body hair on show ridiculed and called disgusting, front page of every paper.. any bulge or hint of cellulite or stretch mark analysed and criticised..

blackwhiteandstripey

Thanks for that - you might also like this link; another brave young man who de-transitioned and managed to get his story out.

www.transgendertrend.com/letter-to-young-trans-people/

I haven't read the full thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but when I see Page I think of Emma, the soon-to-be (I assume, lawyers and paperwork pending) ex-wife.

She is a trans widow and I wasn't surprised when early statements of support were followed by the announcement of their divorce.

I think of her loss and how heartbreaking it must be for her to watch this interview. I hope she hasn't seen it. I hope her friends and family are holding her close.

I hope she isn't being affected in her work.

Lastly, I hope she, and other lesbians like her, are getting help, the type of help and support all trans widows need. I suppose she is no longer in the relationship and there are no children, so she isn't trapped how other women who are trans widows are, but she has lost the love of her life in a way that is unusual and she needs a special kind of support. I hope she finds her others like her so to release all she has inside, a grief of some kind.

I hope she is ok and finds happiness again.

Elliott Page doesn't come across as someone who is happy. He really seemed to find it difficult to answer the question about what was the thing that made him happiest about his transition.
I'm not sure how anyone could watch that and think 'there is a person who's finally comfortable and content with themself'

This feature might also have helped any young woman, like the 1000's of girls on the Tavistock waiting list, who dream that following in poor Elliot's footsteps might be the solution to their distress.

www.transgendertrend.com/lesbian-testimony-old-fashioned-butch-dyke/

@SydneyCarton

EP’s Wikipedia and IMDb pages have been updated with “he/him” pronouns, but are film companies required to change their name on the credits of films they have previously starred in, and if not, is this misgendering? IMDb describes Page as the first trans actor to be Oscar nominated, which is rather disingenuous given that Page’s transition happened more than ten years after the nomination.

Same issue with the Wachowskis, who directed The Matrix films. Now in the record books as the first women to direct a major blockbuster trilogy. Except they achieved that pre-transition.

@Quaagars I'd genuinely really appreciate it if you could respond to this q I asked earlier, because I'm trying to get my head round the difference. Thanks

She is a trans widow and I wasn't surprised when early statements of support were followed by the announcement of their divorce.

So she supported Elliot then?

How does that tie in with if so
I think of her loss and how heartbreaking it must be for her to watch this interview. I hope she hasn't seen it. I hope her friends and family are holding her close.

Unless you're trying to say can't possibly be supportive, must have been forced or emotionally blackmailed into it?
Apologies if not but that's how it comes across

@Quaagars

She is a trans widow and I wasn't surprised when early statements of support were followed by the announcement of their divorce.

So she supported Elliot then?

How does that tie in with if so
I think of her loss and how heartbreaking it must be for her to watch this interview. I hope she hasn't seen it. I hope her friends and family are holding her close.

Unless you're trying to say can't possibly be supportive, must have been forced or emotionally blackmailed into it?
Apologies if not but that's how it comes across

Someone married her despitebbelieving that they weren't the person they said they were. Doesn't that sound upsetting to you?

I was thinking about her too OhHolyJesus when Page first came out as trans. It must have been devestating to;
a, lose a relationship in such an awful way
b, not be able to speak out about how she feels for fear of being denounced as a bigot.

I hope she has a good support network around her.

b, not be able to speak out about how she feels for fear of being denounced as a bigot.

You're assuming she feels the same way as you do though.

@Quaagars

b, not be able to speak out about how she feels for fear of being denounced as a bigot.

You're assuming she feels the same way as you do though.

It is impossible to say anything on this subject without having every word scrutinised for anything less than 100% unquestioning support and celebration.

As you are ironically proving

@YouSetTheTone

When Angelina Jolie had a double mastectomy for health reasons it was made abundantly clear to the public that this was a major operation that she needed significant recovery from. Brad Pitt, as her then partner, was cited as doing a lot to help if I recall correctly.

And that was genuinely life saving surgery.

Thanks for proving my point Quaagers

I imagine, like a lot of women who find out their partner isn't who they thought they were she feels bereft, confused and like the relationship was a lie.

@Quaagars
Can you answer this question which Notagain20 asked you earlier?

Genuine question, how do you describe "being trans"? Because that makes this conversation possible. If it means having acute dysphoria about having a female instead of male body, for Elliot, then I would absolutely accept that they are trans by that definition. If it means that they are really a male person, have always been a male person, who was somehow born in a female body, then I will struggle to unquestioningly accept their self definition I'm afraid. Can you see why people will have different views on this, and still all wish Elliot or someone in their position well?

Genuine question, how do you describe "being trans"?

My comments have made it clear what I think if you read them.
I'm not answering over and over and again until it's an answer you'll "accept."

Apologies if not but that's how it comes across

I can only imagine Emma's response to the news that her wife wanted to be a man. She obviously wanted to support her partner or perhaps felt she could do not publicly but show support as doing the opposite would result in accusations of transphobia come her way, and as a dancer who will rely on both her skills, experience and her public profile to get work, she might need to display a united front with Page to protect her job. Again, I am speculating.

What I was not surprised about was that supporting Page in transition became too much and they separated I think about 6 months before the formal announcement from Page and news of their divorce followed.

From Dec last year when Page published that letter, Emma may have felt forced to show support when actually she was still processing the heartbreak and loss from the fairly recent separation, as I imagine she still is.

Regardless of what anyone believe is possible with transitioning, the woman Emma loved has gone. That is a loss. That is why I feel sad for her.

I agree with what Donkey said.

Lastly, I hope she, and other lesbians like her, are getting help, the type of help and support all trans widows need.

I hope so too, but despite all of my efforts I have not yet found a lesbian trans widow prepared to publicly tell their story so I suspect she will be pretty isolated.

So awful Tinsel, I can quite imagine why any lesbian would want to stay silent on the subject. The homophobia on the lesbian visibility threads are example enough to silence lesbians further.

I saw one very powerful poem from a lesbian who had lost her partner to transitioning. I probably found it here in your posts, some time ago.

Emma is the more well-known example but of course there are lots of lesbians struggling with this. So incredibly tragic, I would hate to see them forgotten in all this.

@IvyTwines2 just coming to this thread now but your point earlier about pronoun use causing children to constantly evaluate themselves really resonated with me. It is putting ideas in their heads, to use old fashioned parlance. Ideas that can lead to significant harm, infertility and becoming a patient for life.

@Quaagars

Genuine question, how do you describe "being trans"?

My comments have made it clear what I think if you read them.
I'm not answering over and over and again until it's an answer you'll "accept."

I have read them but it's not clear to me, that's why I asked in good faith, so I could respond to you.

It's just so hard to discuss this with you if I don't know how you interpret "trans".