BBC article on Elliot Page

[Sittinonthesand]

I don’t know anything about Page - I’ve only seen the name in the context of being trans, but this article contains several worrying/misleading half truths:

• talks about ‘top surgery’ without explaining that it = mastectomy (refers to ‘removal of breast tissue instead).
• talks about surgery as being ‘life saving’ without explaining why.
• says that trans children aren’t being allowed to play sport and this will lead some to die - doesn’t explain why they might die, doesn’t say that they can play sport but maybe not with the sex they’d like.

@bluebluezoo

Now picture a man in that photo with short sleeves, no sleeves, or in shorts

And every single inch of skin hairless- waxed, tanned and polished. Any body hair on show ridiculed and called disgusting, front page of every paper.. any bulge or hint of cellulite or stretch mark analysed and criticised..

Yup.

Anyway, back to why some women don’t want to be women…..

I took it to mean that the "this is absolutely disgusting" comment was referring to people who are against Elliot transitioning and that he should just leave alone etc?

Is anyone against Elliot transitioning? Elliot is an adult and can make his own choices. I might not think it’s the right choice but given that I don’t know Elliot it’s not really for me to say.

Is anyone against Elliot transitioning?

Going by some of the comments on here and the other thread, yes.

but given that I don’t know Elliot it’s not really for me to say.

Well, quite.

Going by some of the comments on here and the other thread, yes.

Which ones? Again, we are seeing people posting not knowing the difference between implying and inferring.

What is disgusting about this whole thing is the lack of journalistic integrity. The article finishes with this line:

"If you're not gonna allow trans kids to play sports, children will die," Page said. "And it really is that simple."

It’s so disgustingly irresponsible to publish that, with no countenance about the falsity of that statement, and no links to suicide services at the end of the article. We will need to watch the whole thing to see if Oprah challenges it, but I sincerely doubt it.

It saddens me enormously that girls will see this sort of thing and think that distress about developing a female body in a deeply, deeply misogynistic world is a sign of being transgender, rather than a normal emotional reaction to losing the freedom of childhood for girls.

Shame on all the media sources that unquestioningly publicise that false and harmful narrative. They are as much to blame as the drug companies and the trans lobbyists.

Yeah it was like when my dad said I had to put a vest on when playing cricket with my brothers and not be topless like them it was like I knew why but that was when the difference became

But the children will die thing page said was just page being a sad idiot

Children die from many things and page should cop onto what children actually die from instead of appropriating their deaths to gender stuff

It’s really gross what page said

Children die from many things and page should cop onto what children actually die from instead of appropriating their deaths to gender stuff

Trans people do as well though, why just dismiss that they do and call them a sad idiot?

Fuck me, it's comments like that that make me glad I'm not trans.
The amount of fucking shit you must get aimed at you (sad idiot? really?) - even if Elliot isn't reading, people who aren't trans are clearly reading all this "doesn't happen" and dismissed as "sad idiot" if people mention what happens, or their experiences.
Just... WTF.

It even made me do some swears
I don't usually

(rarely anyway)

people who aren't trans are clearly reading all this "doesn't happen"

FFS sorry should read people who are trans

Do you think saying “children will die” is an accurate and responsible thing to say? Do you think that just because Page is trans it gives carte blanche to say whatever they want, regardless how hugely inaccurate and irresponsible it might, without criticism?

A famous person, who may be looked up to by children with gender dysphoria, telling them that they will die if they don't get to play sports with opposite sex kids, is saying an idiotic and sad thing (imo)
People who suggest to children that they may take their own lives have their own, questionable, agenda.

Tbf, this isn't unusual from Page. They do get very passionate/emotional when talking about issues.

I do think someone in Page's position needs to be more careful with their words, definitely.

This clip is two years old (hasn't aged well for a couple.of reasons, but still...)

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ellen-page-jussie-smollett-fallout-guest-column-1191006

Unless people seriously have no concept of being themselves, don't know what "you" means?As well as thinking being trans or not being trans all boils down to what clothes you like to wear

We all have different aspects of our personality, and we all have different and shifting moods. Actors often reach into themselves in order to inhabit a role they are playing. That is what gives the greatest depth and realism to a character.

As son as we set out of our front door we adopt a persona or a social mask. If we are not able to do this it can leave us feeling very vulnerable and exposed; and can then lead to mental health issues, or indeed be reflective of existing issues.

The 'true self' exists in the moment and has no labels, other than the ones we ascribe to it. Being yourself can also include the various social masks we adopt, though. the social world, by nature, demands that we wear or adopt some kind of role or costume.

When people say we are 'acting out of character' it is suggestive of some other aspect of ourselves taking over, other than the one we usually present to people. The social world is all about presentation.

@SydneyCarton

Isn’t it another incongruous fact of T ideology that while they reject their past and talk about being born again and dead names etc, they keep the bits they fancy as awards, Olympic records, etc?

Wish Page well, despite it all looking to me as a midlife crisis.

Going by some of the comments on here and the other thread, yes.

So reading stuff into comments then, not actually what people say.

Having a go at contributing to this question posed earlier and repeated:
'Genuine question, how do you describe "being trans"? Because that makes this conversation possible. If it means having acute dysphoria about having a female instead of male body, for Elliot, then I would absolutely accept that they are trans by that definition. If it means that they are really a male person, have always been a male person, who was somehow born in a female body, then I will struggle to unquestioningly accept their self definition I'm afraid. Can you see why people will have different views on this, and still all wish Elliot or someone in their position well?'

I have posted (above) features about those suffering from acute gender dysphoria - the 'cure' suggested by the Oprah interview is the medical/surgical route - but if you see the features I have posted (from LGN, a butch woman who has dysphoria but lives successfully with it; from two MTF's suffering from acute regret at having enduring sex reassignment surgery and the finding it did NOT cure their dysphoria - I would suggest that the idea (above) that you 'accept Elliot has dysphoria' and this means that we would accept Elliot is 'trans by definition'. Yet there are many examples of people you have dysphoria - or the majority of young gender non-confirming children, who simply grow up to accept their bodies, or to be lesbian or gay. So 1) Having dysphoria does not mean you are trans by definition. I am concerned that a generation of gender non-conforming children are having their later sexual orientation 'straightened' away through medical treatment.
lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/01/the-gay-spot-by-lgb-alliance-gender-dysphoria/

The psychiatrist is called Dr Az Hakeem, consultant psychiatrist and author. twitter.com/Doctor_Az_

In this discussion, Dr Az Hakeem, a psychiatrist specialising in the treatment of dysphoria describes euphoria amongst a group of MTF subjects as they prepare for surgical transition, followed by acute depression and disillusionment amongst the same group following surgery. There have been no peer reviewed studies that prove that dysphoria is cured by transitioning.

Sadly, somewhere in the world, lawyers are probably right now seeking out such subjects for one of the biggest class-action lawsuits in history.

2. This suggestion that you can be inherently 'really a male person, have always been a male person, who was somehow born in a female body' conflates gender with biological sex. Elliot was born with an XY chromosome in every cell in her body; no medical treatment on earth can change this - she can (and has) changed her social appearance/gender to male, but she cannot, in purely biological terms, change sex.

3. This goes to the heart of the Maya Forstater appeal, it would be worth a look at the counsel's arguments on this. lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/04/looking-forward-to-the-appeal-in-maya-forstater-v-cgd-by-lgn-legal-commentator-dennis-kavanagh/

[quote macj1]Having a go at contributing to this question posed earlier and repeated:
'Genuine question, how do you describe "being trans"? Because that makes this conversation possible. If it means having acute dysphoria about having a female instead of male body, for Elliot, then I would absolutely accept that they are trans by that definition. If it means that they are really a male person, have always been a male person, who was somehow born in a female body, then I will struggle to unquestioningly accept their self definition I'm afraid. Can you see why people will have different views on this, and still all wish Elliot or someone in their position well?'

I have posted (above) features about those suffering from acute gender dysphoria - the 'cure' suggested by the Oprah interview is the medical/surgical route - but if you see the features I have posted (from LGN, a butch woman who has dysphoria but lives successfully with it; from two MTF's suffering from acute regret at having enduring sex reassignment surgery and the finding it did NOT cure their dysphoria - I would suggest that the idea (above) that you 'accept Elliot has dysphoria' and this means that we would accept Elliot is 'trans by definition'. Yet there are many examples of people you have dysphoria - or the majority of young gender non-confirming children, who simply grow up to accept their bodies, or to be lesbian or gay. So 1) Having dysphoria does not mean you are trans by definition. I am concerned that a generation of gender non-conforming children are having their later sexual orientation 'straightened' away through medical treatment.
lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/01/the-gay-spot-by-lgb-alliance-gender-dysphoria/

The psychiatrist is called Dr Az Hakeem, consultant psychiatrist and author. twitter.com/Doctor_Az_

In this discussion, Dr Az Hakeem, a psychiatrist specialising in the treatment of dysphoria describes euphoria amongst a group of MTF subjects as they prepare for surgical transition, followed by acute depression and disillusionment amongst the same group following surgery. There have been no peer reviewed studies that prove that dysphoria is cured by transitioning.

Sadly, somewhere in the world, lawyers are probably right now seeking out such subjects for one of the biggest class-action lawsuits in history.

2. This suggestion that you can be inherently 'really a male person, have always been a male person, who was somehow born in a female body' conflates gender with biological sex. Elliot was born with an XY chromosome in every cell in her body; no medical treatment on earth can change this - she can (and has) changed her social appearance/gender to male, but she cannot, in purely biological terms, change sex.

3. This goes to the heart of the Maya Forstater appeal, it would be worth a look at the counsel's arguments on this. lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/04/looking-forward-to-the-appeal-in-maya-forstater-v-cgd-by-lgn-legal-commentator-dennis-kavanagh/[/quote]
   Thanks, I agree with you, I felt it impossible really to respond to the PP without knowing what their meaning of "being trans" is. I struggle to understand what it can mean when it's no longer "permitted" to talk about it as a psychological problem but I don't believe in gendered souls. But if I knewwhat the PP had meant by it, I could have agreed or disagreed with their accusations.

[quote SunsetBeetch]Tbf, this isn't unusual from Page. They do get very passionate/emotional when talking about issues.

I do think someone in Page's position needs to be more careful with their words, definitely.

This clip is two years old (hasn't aged well for a couple.of reasons, but still...)

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ellen-page-jussie-smollett-fallout-guest-column-1191006[/quote]
In the Hollywood Reporter piece you link to Page describes themselves as a "white cisgender woman". The piece is from 2019

So in less than two years Page went from publicly describing themselves as "a cisgender woman" to deciding they're trans and getting irreversible major elective surgery.

I mean, that's pretty extreme.

Wow that interview from a couple of years show is quite the eye-opener. I note the way Page refers to their own marriage (now over), then says LGBT people are killing themselves and being beaten on the streets. And then (after a pause) says she's travelled the world and she's seen those things.

So I'm guessing Page doesn't mean lgbt people are killing themselves when they live in a western liberal country like Page does but the implication is there. Sneaky.

Is there an organisation like the Samaritans in the US/Canada that works with the media to tell them about the negative impact of quoting suicide stats? They really should have spoken to Page before the Oprah interview because this is clear form.

I'm sure Page doesn't want to be responsible for upping the mental distress of LGBT community but that is exactly why this kind of stuff is so bloody dangerous.

@EastWestWhosBest

Going by some of the comments on here and the other thread, yes.

So reading stuff into comments then, not actually what people say.

No, reading the actual comments themselves. Not reading stuff into anything.

I felt sympathy for Elliot Page who seems to be having a tough time of it, but none at all for the BBC who should not be promoting anyone’s unevidenced inflammatory assertions of the ‘x will die unless y happens’ kind, however sincerely the celebrity concerned might believe this as an article of faith.

@bluebluezoo

Is it all right for someone without firefighting experience to play a firefighter? What about actors playing serial killers? Should actual murderers be cast? At what point does “acting” mean “being another version of yourself” instead of “interpreting a character using imagination”?

I do find it interesting when people like Russel T Davies says only gay actors should play gay characters.

So only straight actors should play straight roles? In which case Russel is doing an awful lot of actors out of jobs, as there are more straight roles than gay ones. Which will have the effect of forcing some gay actors back in the closet, so they can audition for a wider range of parts than “gay best friend” or whatever.

I know, right?! It's the same for so-called "ethnic" actors.

Do people really think that no one will see the logic? And that actors stuck playing only roles that could plausibly be a certain ethnic group will be pleased about that? Poor old Jason Momoa will be stuck playing only Hawaiian roles, no medieval European settings for him...