BBC article on Elliot Page

[Sittinonthesand]

I don’t know anything about Page - I’ve only seen the name in the context of being trans, but this article contains several worrying/misleading half truths:

• talks about ‘top surgery’ without explaining that it = mastectomy (refers to ‘removal of breast tissue instead).
  
• talks about surgery as being ‘life saving’ without explaining why.
  
• says that trans children aren’t being allowed to play sport and this will lead some to die - doesn’t explain why they might die, doesn’t say that they can play sport but maybe not with the sex they’d like.

[TinselAngel]

@TinselAngel

Plus he is currently dealing with a divorce so let's not make judgements on that and his physical wellbeing without knowing the full situation

Yet it's OK to make judgements about trans widows in that situation, and to try and get them banned from Twitter.

I appreciate I keep mentioning this but every thread I mention it on ends up getting deleted.

[TheWeeDonkey]

That is truly disturbing SmokedDuck Do people really understand the harm they are doing to impressionable young people?

[Quaagars]

The sense was that if you are, say, a man, and find yourself in a situation in clothing that isn't generally considered gender conforming, while you might be embarrassed or feel silly, you would not likely have a panic attack.

Well yes, because they presumably wouldn't be trans!
If it was a biological man in non gender conforming clothes, as you say might just feel uncomfortable or as you put it. embarrassed or a bit silly.
The suggestion is that someone like page having that response suggests that there is some deeper issue around the body that is not explained by actually being a man
Yes... something deeper.... as in being trans!
You're conflating being trans with not being trans, and applying the same to both.
It stands to reason people who aren't trans and are happy being in their body will just feel a bit daft in a dress or whatever like you say.
You're basically saying what I'm saying but just not acknowledging that trans and non trans people are not going to have the same experiences or reactions.

[IvyTwines2]

@forfucksakenett

But the 'red carpet' is another form of performance, and I think most people recognise this. We watch it like a very high-end catwalk show or even in the way we watch something like Drag Race, given how lavish and OTT some of the outfits are (Bjork's swan dress, for instance, or anything for the Met Ball). Very few viewers think these outfits, likely chosen by stylists or fashion houses, represent the actor's day-to-day 'authentic self'.

[R0wantrees]

You're basically saying what I'm saying but just not acknowledging that trans and non trans people are not going to have the same experiences or reactions.

There are plenty of girls and women who have high levels of distress/discomfort including anxiety about the clothes they are required to wear.
I dont think many men appreciate this.

[NecessaryScene1]

being forced to wear the stereotypical outfits of a gender you don't identify with in order to be perceived as 'normal'.

Even if you are being "forced to wear something", the answer is not to concede and go "if I say I'm not a woman, then will you let me wear what I want?"

That's horrifying.

Check out that Magdalen Berns video upthread. Watching Ash Hardell and her thought processes is like confronting some sort of psychological horror. And it seems that Paige is articulating something quite similar.

[Quaagars]

There are plenty of girls and women who have high levels of distress/discomfort including anxiety about the clothes they are required to wear.

Well, quite.
I wouldn't personally presume to equate the fact I hate wearing high heels and can't stand the feel of wearing make up with being trans though.
It just means I'm a woman, who isn't trans, who doesn't like wearing make up or heels.

[TheWeeDonkey]

That Magdalen Berns video was really interesting and I felt sorry for Ash Hardell that they felt that they had to take the route they did to feel authentic.

I can remember a few years ago a friend of mine had a daughter who was a complete tomboy, very sporty only wore trackies or shorts, even jeans were a step too far. it seemed obvious to me that the girl was just emulating her beloved older brother and srtuggling to come to terms with her changing body. They would have battles over the fact she refused to wear desses or feminine clothes for fomal occassions.

This thread is just making me think of them. In their family they just allowed the daughter to be herself and develop naturally and she has become a happy and secure young woman.

I do wonder at what the entertainment industry does to young people, not many of them come out of it unscathed.

[R0wantrees]

I can remember a few years ago a friend of mine had a daughter who was a complete tomboy, very sporty only wore trackies or shorts, even jeans were a step too far. it seemed obvious to me that the girl was just emulating her beloved older brother and srtuggling to come to terms with her changing body. They would have battles over the fact she refused to wear desses or feminine clothes for fomal occassions.

Isn't the labelling of girls as 'Tom Boys' a precursor to them being labelled as 'trans boys'? Why would a preference for particular clothes (which are arguably more practical and comfortable for most people) require a categorisation but only if its a girl making such a choice?

[lavieengrenache]

Quagaars, that it the point Elliot made though, that clothes traditionally thought of as 'female' made them feel distressed. The clothing is a bit of a red herring though - in the video, Elliot just looks like a young person wearing casual clothes which are worn by young people of both sexes - I've had a bit of a flick round the 'net and can't find a picture of them anywhere in particularly 'feminine' clothing, even on the red carpet - lots of suits and ties, some plain and simple black dresses and a couple of very simple coloured dresses.

[forfucksakenett]

[quote IvyTwines2]@forfucksakenett

But the 'red carpet' is another form of performance, and I think most people recognise this. We watch it like a very high-end catwalk show or even in the way we watch something like Drag Race, given how lavish and OTT some of the outfits are (Bjork's swan dress, for instance, or anything for the Met Ball). Very few viewers think these outfits, likely chosen by stylists or fashion houses, represent the actor's day-to-day 'authentic self'.[/quote]
No it's not a performance as such. It's a place where you present yourself. You're not in character.

[Quaagars]

Quagaars, that it the point Elliot made though, that clothes traditionally thought of as 'female' made them feel distressed.

Yes, I know - but if you're not female (as in a trans man), then it would make him distressed, wouldn't it.
Me, not so much, as not trans.
We're all making the same points, but with some posters not accepting that it's not going to be the same for a trans person than it would be for someone who is non trans.
As in looking at it from a "well this person is female" view and ignoring the being trans aspect.

[SirSamuelVimes]

Page looks like a person who is dangerously underweight and frail. Page also looks female. The lack of breast tissue, the haircut and the clothes do nothing to change the overwhelming femaleness of Page's body.

[Quaagars]

Some of these comments commenting on his appearance, trying to paint as a fragile, lost little vulnerable person, are just a bit..... hmmm.

• kind of like trying to insinuate he doesn't know his own mind.
  Kind of like denying that they're trans, and just don't know better/and/or poorly or whatever.

[KaleSlayer]

Page looks like a person who is dangerously underweight and frail. Page also looks female. The lack of breast tissue, the haircut and the clothes do nothing to change the overwhelming femaleness of Page's body.

I agree. It’s very sad to witness.
You can’t be born into the wrong body, it’s physically impossible.

[Quaagars]

You can’t be born into the wrong body, it’s physically impossible.

How do you explain the fact that trans people exist then?
Or the fact that there are people out there, who are not trans, but know they are male or female that has absolutely nothing to do with their bodies?
Would feel a distressing disconnect if suddenly got dropped into the opposite sexes body (yes, I'm aware this is going to get dismissed as a thought experiment, but not sure how else to word it)
Do none of these people exist if it doesn't apply to you?
Everyone's deluded if it doesn't fit your (general your) worldview?

[Justhadathought]

As in looking at it from a "well this person is female" view and ignoring the being trans aspect

Whatever your gender identity, your sex lies beneath it.You can't change or escape from that. And biological sex is often very evident to people. And that is not abuse; it is simply recognising someone's sex.

When you conflate the words gender with female you end up with confusion. 'Female' is a biological signifier.

[macj1]

@EastWestWhosBest

So if trans kids don’t play sport they will die? That’s a leap.
Much less of a leap is the one of a female bodies child being injured by a male bodied child. Or female bodied children never being able to get close to winning because every spot on the podium is occupied by someone who has gone through male puberty.

I’m glad that Elliot is feeling happy though and living as he feels is right for him.

One thought I had was about the series Umbrella Academy. In that he plays a female character, what would happen in a further series?

IMDb describes Page as the first trans actor to be Oscar nominated, which is rather disingenuous given that Page’s transition happened more than ten years after the nomination.

I agree. Even if Elliot knew inside he was trans at that point he was not living as a trans person and didn’t face any of the issues that would present.

If interested in the fight back against the potential harms to girls when forced to compete against trans athletes, this is worth a look...

[BraveBananaBadge]

Elliot does still look feminine SirSamuel and as much as in one way I know that's nobody's business but his, in another I wonder if that is a deliberate choice in how they want to present themselves. For the big Oprah 'reveal' perhaps people were expecting someone more physically 'butch' to come out. Elliot, for someone in their 30s, is still looking and sounding like an awkward teenager and seems to want to regress to an earlier, happier time.

[EmpressWitchDoesntBurn]

Page’s hair is still longer than mine. And longer than that of plenty of other women I know.

Even Mermaids have backed down on the ‘born in the wrong body’ thing now haven’t they?

[Justhadathought]

Kind of like denying that they're trans

Not everyone believes in the concept. Though they may get it that some people do. For many people/most people the concept of 'trans' is simply a way of framing someone's discomfort with themselves; providing a narrative for that discomfort. A narrative, however, which can actually lead to surgery and hormones......which is not an inconsequential matter.

[Quaagars]

Page’s hair is still longer than mine. And longer than that of plenty of other women I know.

Not sure what hair length has to do with anything, since when does that have anything to do with whether you're trans or not
Unless you mean would look "more like a man" (whatever that means) if he cut his hair?
'Cos if so pretty sure that men can have long hair and look good with it too.

[IvyTwines2]

@forfucksakenett

'No it's not a performance as such. It's a place where you present yourself. You're not in character.'

Not really - you are representing the movie you and a whole army of other people have been involved in making, your studio, the film industry, even the designers who have provided the outfit. Many actors now post on instagram showing the team involved in prepping them for the red carpet, and thank all involved. It's not just about them.

These days, too, actors have a direct link to the public - their social media - where we can see their unmediated 'authentic self', should they wish to show it, and many, love it or hate it, are followed around by paparazzi snapping them going to the shops and other mundane activities so we are familiar with what they look like and how they choose to present themselves in their everyday life.

[Quaagars]

Not everyone believes in the concept.

So if people don't believe that you exist, what should they do then?
Just not be trans, not come out?
Hide away instead and hope it just all goes away?