BBC article on Elliot Page

[Sittinonthesand]

I don’t know anything about Page - I’ve only seen the name in the context of being trans, but this article contains several worrying/misleading half truths:

• talks about ‘top surgery’ without explaining that it = mastectomy (refers to ‘removal of breast tissue instead).
• talks about surgery as being ‘life saving’ without explaining why.
• says that trans children aren’t being allowed to play sport and this will lead some to die - doesn’t explain why they might die, doesn’t say that they can play sport but maybe not with the sex they’d like.

They did address it at the end of the interview when Oprah uses the term "in progress"

All of our lives are a work in progress. all human beings suffer and struggle with personal issues and feelings about themselves and their lives. That is why 'identity' is never a finished product. Identities shift and change throughout our lives in response to time, circumstance and experience. 'Identity' is a social marker - in that it means nothing without social relationships to reflect them back to us.

That's the difference between gender identity and sex. Sex is measurable and observable, and exists outside of our identity or feelings about ourselves at any given time.

When Angelina Jolie had a double mastectomy for health reasons it was made abundantly clear to the public that this was a major operation that she needed significant recovery from.

Well, that's clearly a totally different thing. That's a double mastectomy.

This is top surgery.

Or maybe double mastectomy is only bad if you're not trans. Given that not removing breasts likely leads to death for those who are trans, then removing breasts will likely lead to death for those who are not.

Breast configuration has to match trans status, or you die.

That follows, right?

So Angelina Jolie actually had life-threatening surgery.

That's just laughable about the sports. Lots and lots of kids don't play sports anyway, because they don't enjoy team sports or whatever. lots of kids are overweight and don't play sports. lots of kids are rubbish at sports. Lots of kids have other hobbies and prefer being indoors. Lots of kids have asthma and avoid sports. Lots of kids would prefer being inside playing video games. None of them die!

And there's nothing stopping trans kids doing sports - they can play in their own sex teams, because after all, that's the kind of inclusivity they really need, or they could do one of the 1000s of individual sports like swimming or cycling, non competitively. millions of kids cycle and swim and shoot etc and will never be anywhere near a competitive level or the Olympics. There's also nothing stopping them going to the gym! That whole suicide narrative is just ammoral, especially suggesting it to vulnerable kids.

Plus he is currently dealing with a divorce so let's not make judgements on that and his physical wellbeing without knowing the full situation

If someone does not want public speculation or judgment it is probably advisable not to do TV interviews; nor to engage in heavy duty social media presence. You don't do a public interview and then go on to talk about privacy.

Who says someone "liberated" has to be shiny and bouncy and joyous? Do people not usually emerge from massive upheaval a bit delicate and nervous?

This pretty much what I said. But a person up thead explains all this away as being down to abuse from others or from taking T etc. This refusal to acknowledge that even things that are the right thing, well here's no way there aren't some perfectly human reactions. What is it with never being able to claim.any even remotely negative consequences or reactions. Many drugs or procedures come with a whole host of adverse reactions.

It stands to reason when so much has been pinned on something that when it inevitable fails to live up to these impossible standards/results that there's a degree of adjustment after and disappointment or shock alongside everything else. That's a very human reaction to many many things and something that should he discussed really as opposed to pretending it doesn't happen.

“If you're not gonna allow trans kids to play sports, children will die”

This is a shocking and dangerous thing to say, and surely against some kind of guidelines (the Samaritans?) I don’t for one moment think EP did this on purpose. I think the atmosphere, in the US in particular, has been hyped up to a level of dangerous hyperbole, and people repeat refrains like this without thinking about it.

Yes, some people use it as emotional blackmail, but I’ve seen so many US and Canadian friends and family members say hyperbolic things like this with no self-awareness. It is untrue - and it is dangerous to promulgate lies like this.

@Notagain20

The endpoint of this is that we are left with the only women and girls allowed are those who are willing or happy to conform to increasingly sexualised expectations of female appearance and behaviour.

Any woman or girl who feels uncomfortable with sexualised expectations of femininity will be assumed to be "really a man inside". So deeply depressing. Such a backwards step.

This 100 times over. It saddens me that so many people can’t see this.

Name changed as this gets a bit personal. Read the article and felt a mixture of sad and cross. I have what a doctor, many years ago, described as 'pendulous' breasts , always been a 36 K even when the rest of me was really slim. I have always absolutely hated my breasts and the male attention and discomfort they bring, the difficulty finding clothes that fit, bras that don't look like pudding bags, the problems playing sport, finding a comfortable sleeping position. I wish I'd had a breast reduction 35 years ago, but NHS doctors wouldn't do it as I was young, childless and they didn't really want to perform an 'unnecessary' medical procedure on a young and healthy body. I have never been able to afford to go private.

And tbh, there was a niggling voice in my head asking why I was considering having 'cosmetic' surgery when there was actually no reason (of course, older me realises there are plenty of perfectly good reasons both medical and health related and aesthetic). But, I still can't afford to go private and the NHS don't do breast reduction surgery where I am.

Now. it appears that if a young person hates their body and it causes them distress, they can have fairly drastic surgery (I know Paige is in the US, but it appears young people are having 'top surgery' on the NHS in the UK) with little or no investigation as to why they are so unhappy with their bodies other than 'I feel like a boy/man, I hate my breasts'.

I once didn't take a job because it would have required me to wear a skirt or dress. (Admittedly I was fortunate in that two job offers came in at once so I could choose the other one.)

I'm not trans. I'm not lesbian either. I just didn't want to always wear a skirt.

What is it with never being able to claim any even remotely negative consequences or reactions

It sort of feeds into the whole binary way people talk about things on the internet. For example, I suspect of Elliot had said, "It's been really rough, I wondered at times if I was doing the right thing and I still get very depressed and anxious sometimes but on the whole I'm much happier now" (which would be, I imagine, a pretty normal and understandable way to feel under the circs!) he would be concerned about the first bit of the sentence being taken out of context used against him/against trans people in general.

I'm really glad I watched the interview actually. Im pretty outspoken in some of my arguments about transfolk (in relation to sports and womens spaces) but I guess watching this reminded me there's a real human being (often suffering) behind every story.

www.post-gazette.com/ae/movies/2017/11/12/Ellen-Page-takes-aim-at-Hollywood-abusers-including-ex-bosses-Brett-Ratner-and-Woody-Allen/stories/201711120208

I wonder what impact the unwanted sexual attention (to put it mildly) she recieved as a teen has had on her becoming him.

So transmen are more likely to die if they don't get to take part in full contact rugby with men or men's boxing?

@Notagain20 This is my main objection to the pronouns-in-bio thing - every celeb with a young fanbase has them prominently in their social media bio and it's a constant barrage, everywhere these kids look, that asks children and young people to re-evaluate themselves into boxes based on deeply regressive social stereotypes. You like dinosaurs and football, you think party frocks are silly, are you sure you're a girl, are you sure? You might be a boy you know.

I wonder what impact the unwanted sexual attention (to put it mildly) she recieved as a teen has had on her becoming him

I think we also need to look at the Impact of children growing up in the public eye. Manually culkin,.Britney spears are other examples of celebrities that started off very young, grew up on camera and have suffered alit of metal health crisis/addiction etc.

We accept children cant consent to many things that's why there are laws protecting them.from gambling and medication and alcohol etc . I'm sure we have all.seen films where we would question whether or not it was ethical.to have a child say or do what they did.

It does seem.to be quite common that kids who grow up on screen seem to suffer alot as adults

Macauly culkin

Auto correct strikes again

My ASD brain struggles so much with this. Woman, married, gay, divorced, now a man. I just can't do the mental gymnastics required. It's like when my body isn't the right way up I can't put the right limb in the right direction because I'm upside down.
It's all very sad that such inner turmoil is being medicalised and surgery and hormones are believed to fix it.

I assumed the character would follow E Page’s journey and understand that they are now trans..?

That would be a weird way to go with the role, have you seen the show? Besides, the role is the outcast and the most dangerous character in the story, the most mental unstable one. Would the producers want to take the risk of making that character trans? They are setting themselves up for being called transphobic, shut down and never get a job in Hollywood again.

When EP announced being trans umbrella academy confirmed the character would remain but follow the same path.

I think that Elliot Page will still be in the Umbrella Academy and they will rewrite his character.

I can't imagine how hard it is to feel like you are in the wrong body. Maybe acting actually is a way of looking for the acceptance. They all pretend to be people that they are not for all of their career.

Top surgery is major surgery, and so are the lifelong implications of hormones. For example he will be likely to have osteoporosis at an earlier age. As will have lost the protective effects of oestrogen. All of this feels incredibly experimental.

As for the whole sports thing, nobody is stopping trans children from sport, that was incredibly irresponsible reporting.

In terms of having a panic attack in the dress would most men have a panic attack if they had to wear a dress? Would they actually feel distressed at presenting as female or just a bit self conscious and silly?

As a woman I've had many uniforms that are masculine, and don't feel any distress at having to wear them.

Surely a panic attack at wearing a dress indicates a much deeper dislike of your body and self esteem issues. Like body dysmorphia

I think its like if you convinced yourself you had a massive thigh gap, but in real life you didn't, every time you looked in the mirror you'd be distressed by your perfectly normal thighs. You'd become more and more distressed by the thighs each time you saw them. But this doesn't mean you need liposuction, we'd recognise this as body dysmorphia. I think its the same with trans. You get this first niggling thought your trans and then it spirals because the more you tell yourself your a boy, the more distressed you'd become by your breasts

@MNHQ could you please let me know why my comment was deleted? I can’t see how it was at all controversial or offensive, or how it violated talk guidelines.

Requiring external validation from others is not a good way to build self esteem.

65% of people who have cosmetic surgery go on to regret it.

My friend recently died of stage 4 cancer. The first time she got it she had both breasts removed and beat it, but sadly the cancer came back. It ate away at her, but she never stopped to think poor me and was making jokes and telling her story to raise awareness till the end (she was very young and the cancer was missed initially because of this, despite her going to the doctors' three times and being dismissed.

That was brave. The surgery was necessary, but it took a physical and psychological toll on her.

This is not brave.

Chopping off healthy parts is neither brave, not does it deal with the extreme mental health issues that make individuals have such extreme reactions to everyday life.

And making it seem like just a little operation to make you happier diminishes the struggles and bravery of the women who have no choice to do it.

I know my friend, who was very straight-talking, would be very blunt if she'd ever come face to face with anyone presenting it as a lifestyle choice of no consequence.

I actually think it's disgusting that surgeons and mental health services allow and encourage this.

First do no harm... Etc.

Elliot doesn't seem very happy to me 😢

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XOnP2K-4mMQ

Really feel for this person.
Totally agree that child actors must be hugely affected by all the unwanted attention.
So sad.

Surely a panic attack at wearing a dress indicates a much deeper dislike of your body and self esteem issues. Like body dysmorphia

The particular style of dress that female actors are expected to wear are very revealing and women come under enormous scrutiny.

(extract)
"There was so much press and so many premieres all around the world and I was wearing dresses and heels to pretty much every single event," Page said of the press tour, per Insider.

After his manager offered him three dresses to wear to a screening of the film one evening, Page told Winfrey, 67, "I lost it, it was like a cinematic moment. That night, after the premiere at the after-party, I collapsed. That's something that's happened frequently in my life, usually corresponding with a panic attack."

"Ultimately, of course, it's every experience you've had since you were a toddler, people saying, 'The way you're sitting is not ladylike, you're walking like a boy. The music you're listening to as a teenager,' obviously, the way you dress. Every single aspect of who you are constantly being looked at and put in a box in a very binary system," he added. "That's what it leads to."
people.com/movies/elliot-page-collapsed-at-a-premiere-over-gender-pressures/