BBC article on Elliot Page

[Sittinonthesand]

I don’t know anything about Page - I’ve only seen the name in the context of being trans, but this article contains several worrying/misleading half truths:

• talks about ‘top surgery’ without explaining that it = mastectomy (refers to ‘removal of breast tissue instead).
• talks about surgery as being ‘life saving’ without explaining why.
• says that trans children aren’t being allowed to play sport and this will lead some to die - doesn’t explain why they might die, doesn’t say that they can play sport but maybe not with the sex they’d like.

Then why do transmen all (so it seems) cut their hair, quaagars? Why don't they just have it long?

How do you explain the fact that trans people exist then

See my post above......

Transexuals would seek to transition because of extreme dysphoria, and it was understood that this was an psychological issue. The new narrative of an innate gender identity which is often in conflict with one's sex is relatively new. the idea that people are literally born in the wrong body.

So if people don't believe that you exist, what should they do then

Nobody is denying that anyone exists. Don't be daft! What many people do not believe is that there is a naturally occurring condition called 'being trans'. That is not to say that people do not struggle or suffer with themselves, and try to resolve that suffering through adopting a trans identity. It is a way of framing one's experiences. A mental construction.

Sex, however, is real and measurable - and does not depend on anyone telling you about it.

@SirSamuelVimes

Then why do transmen all (so it seems) cut their hair, quaagars? Why don't they just have it long?

Because not everyone's the same? You can't possibly be saying "all the trans men I know and have seen whether in RL or on the telly, or on social media cut their hair so that means they all seem to do?! Anyway, as the pp said Elliot has long hair longer than theirs so it's clear that not all trans men cut their hair short, is it.... I was just saying what the heck has the length of your hair got to do with being trans As it's clear that both men and women can have short or long hair whoever it's on and it's perfectly normal to do so.

Hide away instead and hope it just all goes away

No! You can dress or present in any way you like in most liberal societies; but what you cannot do is change the nature or reality of biology or its consequences.

The whole need to public come out and identify as something is very much a contemporary phenomenon - linked to the social media age....where presentations and public announcements are the way of communicating.

Privately, we can be who we like. But our feelings about ourselves do not change the world at large.

Nobody is denying that anyone exists. Don't be daft!

I meant not existing in a being trans way, which is clear from some of these comments.
Not in a hello, nobody's there you don't exist way!

That is not to say that people do not struggle or suffer with themselves, and try to resolve that suffering through adopting a trans identity. It is a way of framing one's experiences. A mental construction
So I was asking what should they do then?
Do you think they can just try and change their way of thinking and eventually snap out of it or something?
Bend to what you think instead they should be?

Exist..

Well, that's an original way of avoiding the question, throwing out the memes

I think the 'wrong body' business is no longer part of the official party line, Quagaars.

In any case, Page is still in exactly the same body - albeit with some surgical modification.

Avoiding the question. I think you'll find that's your speciality.

I meant not existing in a being trans way, which is clear from some of these comments.Not in a hello, nobody's there you don't exist way

Since when have we expected the world to validate our every feeling about ourselves; or to expect that everyone reflect back to one us our own perception of ourselves. It is so common as to be normal that people see or experience each other in many different ways .

For example i may perceive myself to be generous to a fault or very friendly, but some people might actually perceive me or experience me as being tight-fisted or a bit hostile or prickly. We cannot control people's perceptions of us; and if our mental health depends on the need to control them, we are going to be very fragile indeed.

Sex is a material reality of life on earth, no matter how we feel or perceive ourselves. People and animals recognise someone's sex most of the time. The clues range from the very obvious to the subtle.
You cannot control this perception or recognition.

I've submitted a complaint to the BBC about the "trans kids will commit suicide if they can't play sport" content. It breaches guidelines on reporting about suicide, can promote contagion and is unproven.

Elliot's panic about having to wear dresses being proof they are trans does not convince me.

To me Elliot looked, very sad, very fragile and very thin.

Elliot's panic about having to wear dresses being proof they are trans does not convince me

Why should anyone have to convince or justify themselves to others for the right to be who they are though?

@Justhadathought

How do you explain the fact that trans people exist then

See my post above......

Transexuals would seek to transition because of extreme dysphoria, and it was understood that this was an psychological issue. The new narrative of an innate gender identity which is often in conflict with one's sex is relatively new. the idea that people are literally born in the wrong body.

This is a really helpful perspective. The outlawing of talking about dysphoria in terms of mental distress has created a vacuum into which "born in the wrong body" and its implications of gendered souls popped into. Now that that is being seen as the hokum it is, I'm not sure what will happen to the concept of "trans".

Do you think they can just try and change their way of thinking and eventually snap out of it or something

They should stay with it for as long as they feel it - if it genuinely frees them; but personally don't think that surgery or hormones is a good way to go. If one is truly distraught in one's own body then counselling/therapy and/or trying to come to terms with it is the best option. Because one has to realise that one can never really change one's sex....and that sex matters in the world for all sorts of reasons.

If one cannot come to terms with one's body, then surgery is a last resort, not a first one. But having surgery doesn't change the reality of sex, either. There are transexuals who acknowledge this, and who don't demand the world conform or have to validate them at every turn.

Why should anyone have to convince or justify themselves to others for the right to be who they are though?

The whole thing is reliant on other people though. No one would be any the wiser without an announcement and an expectation that everyone forgets everything else before that point.

You can't involve other people then simultaneously say its nothing to do with anyone else

@Quaagars

Elliot's panic about having to wear dresses being proof they are trans does not convince me

Why should anyone have to convince or justify themselves to others for the right to be who they are though?

Can you say more about the right to be who they are? Thanks

@Whatwouldscullydo

Why should anyone have to convince or justify themselves to others for the right to be who they are though?

The whole thing is reliant on other people though. No one would be any the wiser without an announcement and an expectation that everyone forgets everything else before that point.

You can't involve other people then simultaneously say its nothing to do with anyone else

Yes! I wonder if its partly a product of online life, that people get used to "being who they say they are" without all the messy annoying business of negotiating the social world where you don't just get to demand everyone accepts what you say they must see. Human interaction is a process of negotiation, and if you try to impose a one person dictatorship it's going to be a horrible shock.

Can you say more about the right to be who they are? Thanks

As in, that they're trans.
Which you'll only acknowledge as an answer if you're not like pp who doesn't believe in being trans
(this bit for clarity) What many people do not believe is that there is a naturally occurring condition called 'being trans'.

@Quaagars

Can you say more about the right to be who they are? Thanks

As in, that they're trans.
Which you'll only acknowledge as an answer if you're not like pp who doesn't believe in being trans
(this bit for clarity) What many people do not believe is that there is a naturally occurring condition called 'being trans'.

Genuine question, how do you describe "being trans"? Because that makes this conversation possible. If it means having acute dysphoria about having a female instead of male body, for Elliot, then I would absolutely accept that they are trans by that definition. If it means that they are really a male person, have always been a male person, who was somehow born in a female body, then I will struggle to unquestioningly accept their self definition I'm afraid. Can you see why people will have different views on this, and still all wish Elliot or someone in their position well?

[quote IvyTwines2]@forfucksakenett

'No it's not a performance as such. It's a place where you present yourself. You're not in character.'

Not really - you are representing the movie you and a whole army of other people have been involved in making, your studio, the film industry, even the designers who have provided the outfit. Many actors now post on instagram showing the team involved in prepping them for the red carpet, and thank all involved. It's not just about them.

These days, too, actors have a direct link to the public - their social media - where we can see their unmediated 'authentic self', should they wish to show it, and many, love it or hate it, are followed around by paparazzi snapping them going to the shops and other mundane activities so we are familiar with what they look like and how they choose to present themselves in their everyday life.[/quote]
No matter how you look at it, you appear on the red carpet as yourself. You may well represent your workplace and you may well be dressed up but that doesn't detract from the fact that you are you.

If I work in the bank then I'm not the bank ffs.

@KaleSlayer

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OK, fair enough, but that still doesn't explain people who aren't trans, who are comfortable in their body, have no dysphoria at all, but would still have a massive disconnect and possible distress if suddenly had the body of the opposite sex. (As I said above, probably gets dismissed as well that's just a thought experiment) it's not really though, don't know how else to describe it but I know for example I definitely would and the fact I would, and clearly lots of trans people experience that too, it clearly exists. Or does it not exist as a "thing" if you don't personally experience it?

@SydneyCarton

EP’s Wikipedia and IMDb pages have been updated with “he/him” pronouns, but are film companies required to change their name on the credits of films they have previously starred in, and if not, is this misgendering? IMDb describes Page as the first trans actor to be Oscar nominated, which is rather disingenuous given that Page’s transition happened more than ten years after the nomination.

Bit of trivia for you - the highest grossing films directed by a woman is the Matrix trilogy, despite the fact they were the Wachowski brothers at the time.

Having read some interviews with Page it does seem they’ve experienced gender dysphoria for a long time. I have no issue with people with gender dysphoria transitioning and having treatment if that’s what they want to do. I do find the replacement of their previous name everywhere with their new one a bit jarring, especially things made before the transition, as with The Umbrella Academy.

I don't know if it's just me, but the reaction to this interview, and Elliot Page's coming out in general seems to be a bit more muted than normal? There just doesn't seem to be the same sort of sharing and 'celebrating' over this that one might think there would be of a fairly prominent Hollywood star coming out as trans.

The reasons for this could be two fold
1)Elliot is female and females don't matter as much so people give less of a fuck.
2) People are finally realising that a 34 year old female cutting off their perfectly healthy breasts because they have such intense hatred for their body is not something to be celebrated and dawned over.