BBC article on Elliot Page

[Sittinonthesand]

I don’t know anything about Page - I’ve only seen the name in the context of being trans, but this article contains several worrying/misleading half truths:

• talks about ‘top surgery’ without explaining that it = mastectomy (refers to ‘removal of breast tissue instead).
• talks about surgery as being ‘life saving’ without explaining why.
• says that trans children aren’t being allowed to play sport and this will lead some to die - doesn’t explain why they might die, doesn’t say that they can play sport but maybe not with the sex they’d like.

[quote R0wantrees]Surely a panic attack at wearing a dress indicates a much deeper dislike of your body and self esteem issues. Like body dysmorphia

The particular style of dress that female actors are expected to wear are very revealing and women come under enormous scrutiny.

(extract)
"There was so much press and so many premieres all around the world and I was wearing dresses and heels to pretty much every single event," Page said of the press tour, per Insider.

After his manager offered him three dresses to wear to a screening of the film one evening, Page told Winfrey, 67, "I lost it, it was like a cinematic moment. That night, after the premiere at the after-party, I collapsed. That's something that's happened frequently in my life, usually corresponding with a panic attack."

"Ultimately, of course, it's every experience you've had since you were a toddler, people saying, 'The way you're sitting is not ladylike, you're walking like a boy. The music you're listening to as a teenager,' obviously, the way you dress. Every single aspect of who you are constantly being looked at and put in a box in a very binary system," he added. "That's what it leads to."
people.com/movies/elliot-page-collapsed-at-a-premiere-over-gender-pressures/[/quote]
Oh hell, the response to this is radical feminism, not surgery!

The idea put forward that Page’s mental health is purely under the influence of those being mean to transgender people, and intrinsic factors and medications aren’t a consideration in their influence, is such a childish immature assessment of a person making a public interview demonstrating distress, that I would be embarrassed if I had made such a post.

When I started menopause one of the worst side effects was the impact on my mental health. Anxiety, panic attacks and low level depression lasted for a long time, it was awful. Its a common but not well known fact that estrogen plays a fundamental role in mental health for women, anything that disrupts that is going to have a profound effect.

Are girls and young women being told this before they start taking cross sex hormones?

Oh hell, the response to this is radical feminism, not surgery!

This ^^

[quote R0wantrees]Surely a panic attack at wearing a dress indicates a much deeper dislike of your body and self esteem issues. Like body dysmorphia

The particular style of dress that female actors are expected to wear are very revealing and women come under enormous scrutiny.

(extract)
"There was so much press and so many premieres all around the world and I was wearing dresses and heels to pretty much every single event," Page said of the press tour, per Insider.

After his manager offered him three dresses to wear to a screening of the film one evening, Page told Winfrey, 67, "I lost it, it was like a cinematic moment. That night, after the premiere at the after-party, I collapsed. That's something that's happened frequently in my life, usually corresponding with a panic attack."

"Ultimately, of course, it's every experience you've had since you were a toddler, people saying, 'The way you're sitting is not ladylike, you're walking like a boy. The music you're listening to as a teenager,' obviously, the way you dress. Every single aspect of who you are constantly being looked at and put in a box in a very binary system," he added. "That's what it leads to."
people.com/movies/elliot-page-collapsed-at-a-premiere-over-gender-pressures/[/quote]
This sounds much like me. I was told off plenty of times in my youth for not being ladylike. which pleased me greatly because I didn't want to be a lady. I wanted to be a boy and not be told off for such bullshit things as how I sit - I sit with my legs open, manspread, didn't wear dresses or skirts, wasn't a delicate little flower, hated my female body.

But I know none of that takes away the fact that I am female and nothing I could do could ever change that.

E Page could do with finding a decent barber though. That haircut was shit when I had it as a teenager in the early 90s. (When I was also trying hard not to be female)

@takingmytimeonmyride

People used to comment a lot online about then-Ellen's forehead so maybe that's fed into this desire to change too (seriously, google or twitter search it - so many negative comments about it!).

@blackwhiteandstripey

I'm genuinely interested in the deletion for "dead naming".

What's the reasoning behind this? If someone doesn't go along with the belief that a person can change their sex, aren't they entitled to still call them "he" or "she" depending on their true sex?

I still refer to Cat Stevens as Cat Stevens, for example. Am I "dead naming" him?

I don't mean to take the thread off topic but can anyone help me pick this apart a bit?

Tricky business... I don’t believe that humans can change sex. I do understand that people will feel different in themselves/their identity and will want to chose a name that reflects that. I’m happy to call people their chosen name. Mostly though, I reported it so the twitterati don’t see “Ellen” and sthcweam and sthcweam til they’re sick about how MN is “transphobic”.

Oh hell, the response to this is radical feminism, not surgery!

My all-time favourite Magdalen Berns video, saying the same thing:

Nostalgic for a time when being an androgynous lesbian was absolutely fine and not indicative of needing a new gender identity

My all-time favourite Magdalen Berns video, saying the same thing:

Exactly. Surely the answer to ridiculous man/woman sexist stereotypes is not to simply just move over into the 'opposite sex' category, because then you are just reinforcing those stereotypes?

Totally agree about the pressure to put your pronouns in your bio/email etc, particularly among young people. For an ideology that is apparently about smashing up labels and boxes, there is an awful lot of putting labels on people and putting them in particular boxes.

And just the general pressure to 'label' oneself as 'she' or 'he' or whatever and having to live your life according to that.

There are two sexes, everything else is just your personality.

Watching EP I can’t help think this is all going to end badly.
I don’t expect them to be leaping around with joy, but I also don’t expect them to come across so very damaged and unwell looking.

As usual hyperbolic lying to victimize themselves in order to gain sympathy and make demands appear as 'rights'.

What I don't understand about the comments regarding dresses and premiers/after parties is that there are plenty of examples of women who don't conform to the expected dress/heels business. Diane Keaton being an obvious one, Tilda Swindon another. And Page had also worn trouser suits to these things for a good while.

I just am surprised that Page felt unable to make autonomous decisions to wear whatever and have short hair.

@DIshedUp
In terms of having a panic attack in the dress would most men have a panic attack if they had to wear a dress? Would they actually feel distressed at presenting as female or just a bit self conscious and silly?

Surely that's not an equal comparison, though?
For a more equal comparison when you're trans it would be the opposite - in other words a man dressing up in a suit and a tie and having a panic attack.
Stands to reason that if a trans man can have panic attacks from wearing dresses, the equivalent of a trans woman having one would be from wearing say a suit and tie or whatever.

"Ultimately, of course, it's every experience you've had since you were a toddler, people saying, 'The way you're sitting is not ladylike, you're walking like a boy. The music you're listening to as a teenager,' obviously, the way you dress. Every single aspect of who you are constantly being looked at and put in a box in a very binary system," he added. "That's what it leads to."

I feel exactly the same. But I don’t agree that it leads to you believing you are the opposite sex. It has lead to me thinking about how I behave and how I treat boys and girls.

Very sad that this person has been very badly let down by those around them. They seem very unstable and delicate and I don’t think this will end well.

I just am surprised that Page felt unable to make autonomous decisions to wear whatever and have short hair.

This is the tragedy.

Recall some of the detransitioners at the Manchester event a couple of years ago mentioning how before they came out as trans, they had been suffering from anorexia - and that the feelings towards the body were the same in both instances.

I've seen some recent images of Elliot Page and he is looking worryingly thin.

[quote IvyTwines2]@Notagain20 This is my main objection to the pronouns-in-bio thing - every celeb with a young fanbase has them prominently in their social media bio and it's a constant barrage, everywhere these kids look, that asks children and young people to re-evaluate themselves into boxes based on deeply regressive social stereotypes. You like dinosaurs and football, you think party frocks are silly, are you sure you're a girl, are you sure? You might be a boy you know.[/quote]
My daughter was deeply affected by this at a camp she attended, where they were asked every morning what their pronouns for the day were.

It seemed to throw her into this existential crises where she had to know WHA HE WAS and remove all girl clothes from her wardrobe and any discomfort around her body (Which was lots, she was 13) had some deeper meaning.

She's already inclined to hyper-focus on stuff and get anxious, and she was in a really bad way for several months. And she couldn't sort through the ideas around gender very well intellectually, it was just a little too far beyond her development and experience. And she figured I was a bigot.

Thankfully her dad turned out to be good at talking to her about it, which I totally didn't expect as he is kind of a no bs, in many ways very stereotypically manly guy. He basically told her that her thinking was sexist and she should just be herself. In the end she decided maybe she didn't need to put herself in a box and be just one thing, and she actually liked dresses sometimes anyway, but I was really startled at how deeply that thinking had taken hold, and she picked up all the lingo really fast, wanting to change her name, pronouns, get a binder, etc.

My message has been deleted, but the Guardian's own Susanna Rustin is making the same point on Twitter today.

[quote Quaagars]@DIshedUp
In terms of having a panic attack in the dress would most men have a panic attack if they had to wear a dress? Would they actually feel distressed at presenting as female or just a bit self conscious and silly?

Surely that's not an equal comparison, though?
For a more equal comparison when you're trans it would be the opposite - in other words a man dressing up in a suit and a tie and having a panic attack.
Stands to reason that if a trans man can have panic attacks from wearing dresses, the equivalent of a trans woman having one would be from wearing say a suit and tie or whatever.[/quote]
No, what you are suggesting is not what the comment was saying at all.

The sense was that if you are, say, a man, and find yourself in a situation in clothing that isn't generally considered gender conforming, while you might be embarrassed or feel silly, you would not likely have a panic attack.

The suggestion is that someone like page having that response suggests that there is some deeper issue around the body that is not explained by actually being a man.

Plus he is currently dealing with a divorce so let's not make judgements on that and his physical wellbeing without knowing the full situation

Yet it's OK to make judgements about trans widows in that situation, and to try and get them banned from Twitter.

@NecessaryScene1

One part of the Oprah interview was about collapsing in a panic attack whilst wearing a dress , don't actors need to wear costumes and wear all manor of clothes on screen? How would that work as a job .

Either someone is very, very bad at career selection, or someone is just reciting a narrative trope of their belief system to justify their current head space.

Looking at the rest of the stuff being said, I think the latter is more likely.

Absolute nonsense. It's a very different thing playing dress up than it is being forced to wear the stereotypical outfits of a gender you don't identify with in order to be perceived as 'normal'.